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abundrefo
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 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:50 pm Post subject: Adams flugelhorn not tuned in A=440Hz? |
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Hi,
I think I'm just having a hard time finding a mouthpiece for my Adams F1 flugel but I have to ask.
Have any or you guys ever played an Adams flugel that was not built to tune in A=440Hz?
Thank you. |
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Adams flugelhorn not tuned in A=440Hz? |
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| abundrefo wrote: | Hi,
I think I'm just having a hard time finding a mouthpiece for my Adams F1 flugel but I have to ask.
Have any or you guys ever played an Adams flugel that was not built to tune in A=440Hz?
Thank you. |
They likely would tune to A=442 Hz. Do you have to pull out the leadpipe a lot? |
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qcm
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Also, do you have a flugel mouthpiece with the proper shank for the Adams?
-Dave
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Dave Edwards
Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc. |
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abundrefo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:33 am Post subject: |
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I asked Adams directly and here's their anwer:
"All our flugels are tuned in 442.
We don’t have 440 tuned instruments."
Also, I have heard from the brass consultant that works with our local Adams dealer that most brass instruments in the world today are tuned to A=442 by default.
This is completely new to me. I always thought I should set the tuner to A=440 to tune my brass instruments. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| abundrefo wrote: | ... I have heard from the brass consultant that works with our local Adams dealer that most brass instruments in the world today are tuned to A=442 by default.
This is completely new to me. I always thought I should set the tuner to A=440 to tune my brass instruments. |
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The real answer (at least my understanding ...)
The INSTRUMENT itself is designed and built for concert A=442 with the main tuning slide IN. That is done with the assumption that nobody would want or need to tune at a higher pitch. And it is a good compromise minimum tubing length that allow for as-needed adjustments.
I don't know the 'designed pitch' for the individual valve slides.
When playing trumpet alone with a tuner, it is most typical to set the tuner at A=440, and just pull the main tuning slide a little bit (maybe about 1/2 inch) - The other slides don't need individual 'pre-set' adjustments (on trumpet) because the player will unconsciously adjust, and the amount of slide change would be tiny. On lower pitched valved brass, the individual slides are usually pulled somewhat to get the desired pitches, usually at A=440 - and are generally just left in their pre-set positions.
When playing with a group, you should tune to match the desired overall pitch, which shouldn't be higher than A=442. And don't worry about the valve slides, except for the known 'sharp' fingering combinations.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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abundrefo
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Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | abundrefo wrote: | ... I have heard from the brass consultant that works with our local Adams dealer that most brass instruments in the world today are tuned to A=442 by default.
This is completely new to me. I always thought I should set the tuner to A=440 to tune my brass instruments. |
----------------------------------
The real answer (at least my understanding ...)
The INSTRUMENT itself is designed and built for concert A=442 with the main tuning slide IN. That is done with the assumption that nobody would want or need to tune at a higher pitch. And it is a good compromise minimum tubing length that allow for as-needed adjustments.
I don't know the 'designed pitch' for the individual valve slides.
When playing trumpet alone with a tuner, it is most typical to set the tuner at A=440, and just pull the main tuning slide a little bit (maybe about 1/2 inch) - The other slides don't need individual 'pre-set' adjustments (on trumpet) because the player will unconsciously adjust, and the amount of slide change would be tiny. On lower pitched valved brass, the individual slides are usually pulled somewhat to get the desired pitches, usually at A=440 - and are generally just left in their pre-set positions.
When playing with a group, you should tune to match the desired overall pitch, which shouldn't be higher than A=442. And don't worry about the valve slides, except for the known 'sharp' fingering combinations.
Jay |
When I play alone with a tuner, and according to the tuner measurements, this flugel is more in tune with itself if I set the tuner to A=442 and adjust the leadpipe to that.
I didn't have time to play this instrument in a group yet, so I'm not sure what will happen in that situation compared to what the tuner tells me right now. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:37 am Post subject: |
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There's a problem with depending on an electronic tuner to 'decide' the proper pitch for individual notes.
1) The tuner is designed for equal temperament 'piano' tuning, and most wind band groups (attempt) to play in 'just temperament' which is slightly different and sounds better. E.g. on a piano, play any major 3rd and listen how badly it sounds (that's a problem caused by equal temperament), a major 3rd played on brass instruments should sound good.
2) When playing, it is typical (natural?) to have a 'good sounding' pitch as the desired mental goal, regardless of what an electronic tuner would show.
3) I have a 'personal belief' (no facts) that when playing with a group, the overall sound and pitch of the surrounding players provides 'feedback' into the bell, and that exerts some force on the embouchure to pull/push the pitch into better resonance. And certainly the player hears the sound and pitch of the others.
Yes, the tuner is good to set the main tuning slide, and perhaps to 'learn' where the pre-set positions of the valve slides works best. Maybe use those small rubber bumpers to adjust the IN position of the valve slides, if desired.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Richard III
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:44 am Post subject: |
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I've got an F1. As I've said before, it has the best intonation of any flugelhorn I've ever tried. In fact, much better than most of my other instruments. The tuning bit is pulled out most of the time about a half an inch. That changes depending on mouthpiece. For instance playing with the Flip Oakes Extreme I have to change it. But all my Curry mouthpieces are consistent. And all of the individual valve slides are pushed all the way in.
I would guess the problem is your mouthpiece, be it the shank being wrong and not the large Morse or some other reason.
Did you say what mouthpiece you are using? I've tried many, many mouthpieces in this horn.
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abundrefo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | I've got an F1. As I've said before, it has the best intonation of any flugelhorn I've ever tried. In fact, much better than most of my other instruments. The tuning bit is pulled out most of the time about a half an inch. That changes depending on mouthpiece. For instance playing with the Flip Oakes Extreme I have to change it. But all my Curry mouthpieces are consistent. And all of the individual valve slides are pushed all the way in.
I would guess the problem is your mouthpiece, be it the shank being wrong and not the large Morse or some other reason.
Did you say what mouthpiece you are using? I've tried many, many mouthpieces in this horn. |
Hi Richard III, given that Adams does build the F1 (and all the other flugels) according to A = 442 Hz, I think I figured something out.
Do you see a mark on the leadpipe at around 1 cm? I guess that's the standard position to tune the flugel to an A = 442 Hz if you are using at least a medium deep mouthpiece
If you decide to tune it to A = 440 Hz then you'd have to pull it to half an inch.
Yes, I've been using a large morse taper mouthpiece but it is a "shallow" FL cup. Not medium deep or deep cup.
I've read somewhere that Denis Wick FL cups work great with this flugelhorn. Maybe I'll try it in the future. |
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maynard-46
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:41 am Post subject: Adams flugelhorn not tuned in A=440Hz? |
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| Quote: | | Do you see a mark on the leadpipe at around 1 cm? I guess that's the standard position to tune the flugel to an A = 442 Hz if you are using at least a medium deep mouthpiece |
That is a solder joint! It has nothing to do with tuning  Also...I don't care if the horn is built at A==450...you tune the horn when playing ...or to a tuner...at A=440. Why tune higher than ur going to play at???
Butch
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FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL. |
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abundrefo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Adams flugelhorn not tuned in A=440Hz? |
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| maynard-46 wrote: | | Quote: | | Do you see a mark on the leadpipe at around 1 cm? I guess that's the standard position to tune the flugel to an A = 442 Hz if you are using at least a medium deep mouthpiece |
That is a solder joint! It has nothing to do with tuning Also...I don't care if the horn is built at A==450...you tune the horn when playing ...or to a tuner...at A=440. Why tune higher than ur going to play at???
Butch |
Not according to Adams. In an email they said this:
"This a reference mark on the leadpipe. So this is only ment to help you find the correct position all the time." |
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maynard-46
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:02 am Post subject: Adams flugelhorn not tuned in A=440Hz? |
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| Quote: | Not according to Adams. In an email they said this:
"This a reference mark on the leadpipe. So this is only ment to help you find the correct position all the time." |
If u look down the inside of the leadpipe u will see that the mark on the outside corresponds to the receiver ring on the inside. That's where they pieced it together. Never heard of a professional instrument having a "reference mark" related to where one should pull the tuning pipe to tune. We're all different with different ways of playing...different mouthpieces etc. Some players are in tune 1/4" out ...others are in tune at 2" out.
I discussed this very issue...at length...with Kenny T. at Warb. when I sent him my one of my Adams tuning pipes to have a piece fitted for it. Then, again, maybe both he and I are all "wet" when it comes to this issue!!! lol!! Good luck with ur tuning.
Butch
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TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL. |
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abundrefo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Adams flugelhorn not tuned in A=440Hz? |
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| maynard-46 wrote: | | Quote: | Not according to Adams. In an email they said this:
"This a reference mark on the leadpipe. So this is only ment to help you find the correct position all the time." |
If u look down the inside of the leadpipe u will see that the mark on the outside corresponds to the receiver ring on the inside. That's where they pieced it together. Never heard of a professional instrument having a "reference mark" related to where one should pull the tuning pipe to tune. We're all different with different ways of playing...different mouthpieces etc. Some players are in tune 1/4" out ...others are in tune at 2" out.
I discussed this very issue...at length...with Kenny T. at Warb. when I sent him my one of my Adams tuning pipes to have a piece fitted for it. Then, again, maybe both he and I are all "wet" when it comes to this issue!!! lol!! Good luck with ur tuning.
Butch |
I'm learning about all this just now. And I believed what the guys from Adams told me. I have no reason to doubt it. But I guess you are also right. I checked the leadpipe and I see what you mean.
At the end, did you have to build a custom mouthpiece shank to fit the lead pipe? What happened when you tried a standard large morse taper mouthpiece?
With my flugel, I did notice that not every large taper mouthpiece I tried will fit right away. A few of them needed a little twist to lock in at the end of the receiver ring. |
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maynard-46
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: Adams flugelhorn not tuned in A=440Hz? |
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| Quote: | | did you have to build a custom mouthpiece shank to fit the lead pipe? |
90% of the time I use Warburton or Legends flugel pieces. When I started using them on my Adams flugel I noticed at the end of the flugel shanks there was a circular ring, about 1/16th-1/8th", developing around the bottom of the flugel shank. Using my Warb, gap measuring tool I could tell that the flugel pieces were going THRU the receiver ring...in other words...they were too long. I sent the pipe and about 4 pieces to Kenny. He did his measuring and found the same thing as I did. So, to correct this, he re-shaped the shanks to a V1 taper which is a little shorter and thus fatter on the bottom of the shank. This is their standard taper for Conn Vintage 1 flugels. This solved the problem perfectly!!
All of the above being said I also find that the standard Large Morse tapered pieces such as Curry, Reeves (and there are probably some others) fit perfectly ''as is and require NO modifications at all. If u don't have the Warb. gap measuring tool I strongly suggest picking one up as I find it VERY useful and use it all of the time. Since I play multiple Bb trumpets I always wondered why a certain piece works on one horn and not the other two. It basically came down to the different gaps on each horn. The tool helped me find my "sweet spot" so, along with using the Reeves sleeve system on certain pieces/backbores I can obtain my sweet spot, using the same piece, on all of my horns.
Hope some of my findings help!!
Butch
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TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL. |
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abundrefo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Adams flugelhorn not tuned in A=440Hz? |
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| maynard-46 wrote: | | Quote: | | did you have to build a custom mouthpiece shank to fit the lead pipe? |
90% of the time I use Warburton or Legends flugel pieces. When I started using them on my Adams flugel I noticed at the end of the flugel shanks there was a circular ring, about 1/16th-1/8th", developing around the bottom of the flugel shank. |
I have this circular ring developing on my ACB and Yamaha flugel mouthpieces. With the Yamaha giving me a more precise fit and curiously (because supposedly Adams and ACB should be a perfect match) with the ACB requiring a little twist to sit in firmly. And this happens with both #2 and the extra #3 leadpipes. Maybe I've been struggling because of my mouthpiece selection? |
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mrhappy
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | There's a problem with depending on an electronic tuner to 'decide' the proper pitch for individual notes.
1) The tuner is designed for equal temperament 'piano' tuning, and most wind band groups (attempt) to play in 'just temperament' which is slightly different and sounds better.
Yes, the tuner is good to set the main tuning slide,
Jay |
Ah this is interesting as I was JUST experimenting with a tuner and thinking that my horn has some wacky intonation going on... however, playing along with actual music everything is fine! I feel MUCH better now and I guess I don't have to send my horn to the crusher after all!! 
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zaferis
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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link
I don't really understand the issue.. pull the tuning slide out far enough that you can play in tune based on A=440.. not all the notes will be in-tune, but you find the best all-around spot. If you look at the photo, linked above, you'll see the tuning slide pulled a solid 1 ~1/2 inches or more (what I expect to see, if your mouthpiece fits properly-proper morse taper). I can't imagine any manufacturer putting a mark as we're all so different. Your slide will, over time, discolor and give reference points of where you more frequently set the slide.
On my Bach, when warm, I pull the slide nearly 2 inches to settle into the optimal position, tuner set to A=440, unless I use my deepest Flugel Cup, then I push in a bit.
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Tony Scodwell
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:17 am Post subject: Fugel tuning |
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Interesting discussion on tuning the Adam flugel. They are wonderful instruments for sure. On my Scodwell USA flugelhorn I developed the tunable lower branch along with the standard leadpipe tunability to correct what I saw as disturbance in airflow upstream from the valves re-locating it after exiting the third valve via the tuning branch. This was done after many years playing my lovely Cousenon with the leadpipe pulled about 2 inches. I kept the leadpipe tunable to make slight adjustments for any mouthpiece the player may prefer and have both Bach and Yamaha tapers available. Flawless intonation and tone quality (dark but clear) were the end result.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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abundrefo
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | | I don't really understand the issue.. pull the tuning slide out far enough that you can play in tune based on A=440. |
I'll always prefer the situation of pushing the tuning slide in to go from A=440 to A=442 (if necessary) instead of pulling the tuning slide out to go from A=442 to A=440 (if necessary). In this case with the F1, depending on the mouthpiece, and only according to what I feel, pulling the tuning slide out too far changes the way the horn blows.
I tried a few large morse taper mouthpieces that made me pull the tuning slide out an inch and a quarter (not counting the receiver ring). It played A=440 perfectly but I hated the way the F1 played!
I didn't find the information of Adams being tuned to A=442 until a few days ago. Actually, can any of you guys name flugelhorn brands that tune their instruments using A=440 and the brands that tune using A=442?
Last edited by abundrefo on Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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abundrefo
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