| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2596
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:06 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| SteveDurand wrote: | | Robert P wrote: |
Until you show me an X-ray film of you or anyone else playing a high C with their tongue flat against the roof of their mouth I call bull. |
Asking for evidence is certainly appropriate but I don't appreciate the insinuation that I am lying. I was hoping this would be a civil discussion
|
You may think you're doing it but I think you're at least inaccurately assessing what's actually happening. I can certainly call bull on a claim that's made due to misdiagnosis - in the most civil way possible of course. 
What you're claiming flies in the face of what's already been documented. As I understand it Maurice Andre didn't believe he raised his tongue to play higher until it was proven to him that he did.
The air has to get past the base of the tongue so unless you've got some strangely atypical physiology, playing high - or at all - with the length of your tongue slammed against the roof of your mouth? No.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: | ... playing a high C with their tongue flat against the roof of their mouth I call bull.
...
By a yawn action I mean the action of the tongue/throat such as you can do with your teeth closed which lowers the tongue arch in the area farther back near the throat. You're not going to play high notes doing it. |
----------------------------------------
I agree that the position you describe above would make any playing very difficult or impossible.
1) (full?) tongue against roof of mouth
2) teeth closed (rear molars I assume)
And I doubt that anyone would find that a comfortable position, to even attempt using it.
When using a conventional jaw position, do you think that some MINIMUM amount of tongue arch must be used? Does that minimum amount vary among individuals?
And apparently you agree from your comment about Maurice Andre, that it is not necessary to consciously move the tongue into a particular position (since you said that MA didn't believe he used an arch).
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3404
Location: Garland, Texas
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: | | What you're claiming flies in the face of what's already been documented. As I understand it Maurice Andre didn't believe he raised his tongue to play higher until it was proven to him that he did. |
You are mistaken. There have been x-ray videos posted on TH which clearly show players ascending into the upper register without raising the tongue at all. Yes, Andre did it unconsciously, as do most players. However, it is a variable, and not a hard rule. As Steve pointed out, it is rather easy to disprove dogmatic beliefs about tongue arch.
There is one TH poster who used to claim (loudly) that if trumpet players didn't have a tongue, they could not change pitch. He utterly and completely did not understand the ability and flexibility of LIPS in the embouchure equation. When he saw the video, he had to change his tune.
All that aside, the tongue is very useful in ASSISTING pitch change, if for no other reason than it can help to reinforce lip position. Perhaps it does more than that, but that topic is controversial to say the least.
And no, I don't have time to find the links to the videos.
Jeff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SteveDurand
Regular Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Orange County, California
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Robet P,
No, there is no misdiagnosis.
I did not say it was the entire length of my tongue. I would estimate it's probably the front half.
But the specific amount of how much of the tongue is planted on the roof of the mouth is irrelevant. Even if it were only the tip of the tongue it would still falsify the idea that there is some air channel over the tongue arch that is directing air to the aperture. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harry Hilgers
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 637
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| trumpetteacher1 wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | What you're claiming flies in the face of what's already been documented. As I understand it Maurice Andre didn't believe he raised his tongue to play higher until it was proven to him that he did. |
You are mistaken. There have been x-ray videos posted on TH which clearly show players ascending into the upper register without raising the tongue at all. Yes, Andre did it unconsciously, as do most players. However, it is a variable, and not a hard rule. As Steve pointed out, it is rather easy to disprove dogmatic beliefs about tongue arch.
There is one TH poster who used to claim (loudly) that if trumpet players didn't have a tongue, they could not change pitch. He utterly and completely did not understand the ability and flexibility of LIPS in the embouchure equation. When he saw the video, he had to change his tune.
All that aside, the tongue is very useful in ASSISTING pitch change, if for no other reason than it can help to reinforce lip position. Perhaps it does more than that, but that topic is controversial to say the least.
And no, I don't have time to find the links to the videos.
Jeff |
Under my Claude Gordon teacher my playing improved tremendously in-spite-of the Claude Gordon method but not because of it. Raising the tongue never improved my range. I still had to resort to mouthpiece pressure to play the "Trumpet Shall Sound". One of the best things I did was dropping the Claude Gordon Method. My range did not start improving until my oldest son introduced me to the BE method.
I am not interested in going to anymore discussions to beat this dead horse, suffice it to say that the lips are equivalent to the garden hose flow nozzle and the tongue equivalent to my fingers pinching the hose some place back from the nozzle.
Both control the flow rate but the nozzle does it more directly and more efficiently. Now replace the water in the hose with compressible air and then continue thinking from there.
And "yes" I have read all the yesteryear's Claude Gordon "technical" data and "yes" I was able to give very rational and logical arguments against it.
And "yes" I have now zero interest in discussing this topic as my memory on this went south long time ago and I simply no longer care.
Let the fireworks begin ...... 
Cheers,
Harry |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2596
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SteveDurand wrote: | Robet P,
No, there is no misdiagnosis.
I did not say it was the entire length of my tongue. I would estimate it's probably the front half.
But the specific amount of how much of the tongue is planted on the roof of the mouth is irrelevant. Even if it were only the tip of the tongue it would still falsify the idea that there is some air channel over the tongue arch that is directing air to the aperture. |
There's a flaw in your refutation. Instead of directing the faster air over your tongue, you're directing it around it. Physics doesn't change.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SteveDurand wrote: | | The air goes around the sides of the tongue. Try it yourself, you can stick your tongue up to the top of your mouth and still blow air. |
Hi Steve,
Yes, this is true in the low, middle and even the beginning of the upper register. One can wag their tongue around almost anywhere in their mouth while sustaining a note in these ranges on the trumpet (or any other brass instrument). But not in the extreme upper register. Once one has reached somewhere around High C or D, the tongue arches up and forward to the point where the sides of the tongue form a seal against the inside edges of the upper molar teeth. This forms a channel for the air, and prevents air pressure from reaching the sides of the mouth (the cheek area) and also most of the surface of the lips. At this point, all the air pressure is being directed to a small (tiny) portion of the lips. I've written in the past of an experiment I do with a coffee stirrer straw to prove this. Here's a post of mine about this from the past:
The Tongue Channels the Air (And a Straw Will Prove It!)
It's LONG post, so to briefly summarize it: If I put a coffee stirrer straw through the corner of my mouth so that the tip rests in between my molars and the inside of my cheek, and play my trumpet, air leaks out through the straw. But as I reach my higher notes (approximately High C and above), even though I am blowing much harder, air stops leaking out of the straw. This is because at this point my tongue has arched up and forward enough that it is channeling the air directly to the front middle portion of my lips. There is no longer any air pressure reaching the sides of my mouth. Note that the lack of air coming out of the straw when I play up high is not being caused by the straw collapsing from my more-compressed lips - this is one of those rigid coffee stirrer straws and it would take much more pressure to crush it than what my lips can provide.
For an even better illustration of how the tongue arches up and forward and creates a tiny orifice for the air to go through, watch the following two spots on the MRI video of Sarah Willis's mouth and tongue playing from the very low to the very high register (up to the French Horn equivalent of our Double High C). Sarah Willis plays French Horn and is a member of the Berlin Philharmonic.
https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA?t=104
https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA?t=434
I hope this proves helpful.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| trumpetteacher1 wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | What you're claiming flies in the face of what's already been documented. As I understand it Maurice Andre didn't believe he raised his tongue to play higher until it was proven to him that he did. |
You are mistaken. There have been x-ray videos posted on TH which clearly show players ascending into the upper register without raising the tongue at all. |
That is not exactly true. To my knowledge there has been one video, which featured one mediocre trumpet player, only ascending to a high C (and he chips the High C on the first of his attempts) that didn't show much tongue arch at all (a little bit of arching can be seen as he slurs up through the harmonics at the very beginning of the video). But he never reaches the point in range where significant arch starts to happen. And, as the player tongues with the tip of his tongue, forcing his tongue too far back in his mouth, and causing the tip to block the airstream as he tries (and fails) to cleanly articulate the first High C in the video, instead of tonguing with the front-middle portion of his tongue as most great players do (dorsal or KTM) tonguing) this video provides the perfect example of how not to approach the upper register. Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjSBQl38ksk
| trumpetteacher1 wrote: | | Yes, Andre did it unconsciously, as do most players. However, it is a variable, and not a hard rule. As Steve pointed out, it is rather easy to disprove dogmatic beliefs about tongue arch. |
Yes Andre didn't realize he arched his tongue for the notes above high C. It is important to note that all the players in John Haynie's fluoroscopic (X-Ray) study who were able to play in the range above High C (including Maurice Andre) arched their tongues up and forward as they reached that high range. Steve didn't disprove anything. Unless he is claiming he can move his tongue all over the inside of his mouth while playing something around an F or G above High C, his observations pertain to what happens in the lower ranges on the trumpet - not the extreme upper register.
| trumpetteacher1 wrote: | | There is one TH poster who used to claim (loudly) that if trumpet players didn't have a tongue, they could not change pitch. He utterly and completely did not understand the ability and flexibility of LIPS in the embouchure equation. When he saw the video, he had to change his tune. |
I'm not sure who that TH poster was (I hope it wasn't me - but if it was, at least it proves that I'm not dogmatic because I don't think that now ). Whoever it was, he probably had that opinion due in part to what Claude Gordon used to say and also wrote in his book Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing ("You could have a lip strong enough to lift a piano and not play above a low C."). This is one of the few things I think Claude was wrong about. Though it is certainly helpful, tongue arch is clearly not necessary in the lower, middle, or even the beginning of the upper register (up to around High C I think). But it sure makes the job easier and makes movement between notes that are slurred but have no valve changes flow much nicer and sound better. I'm sure you agree. Actually, you're about to. 
| trumpetteacher1 wrote: | All that aside, the tongue is very useful in ASSISTING pitch change, if for no other reason than it can help to reinforce lip position. Perhaps it does more than that, but that topic is controversial to say the least.
And no, I don't have time to find the links to the videos.
Jeff |
In summary, I think up and forward tongue arch is necessary to reach the notes above High C, or at least to be able to play them musically. But it is not the only thing necessary (air power and facial/lip muscles share the load). And no one is going to read how the air/lips/tongue function and then just go and be able to pick up their horn and play a super high note, any more than one could learn to ride a bike simply from an explanation of how to do it.
A video (or videos) that involve only playing up to a High C is not going to do much to show proper tongue arch. For that, we need videos such as these where the player plays up beyond that register, in this case, to what is the harmonic equivalent of a trumpet's double high C:
https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA?t=104
https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA?t=434
Again, watching these and knowing the way things work in general can be helpful, but what is critical is proper, consistent practice of the exercises that will develop what we want to develop. Maurice Andre didn't have a clue about tongue arch, yet look where he got!
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2596
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SteveDurand wrote: | Robet P,
No, there is no misdiagnosis.
I did not say it was the entire length of my tongue. I would estimate it's probably the front half. |
"Paste it flat against the roof of my mouth" was unclear then.
At any rate - the faster lip vibrations have to be supported by faster air.
| Quote: | | But the specific amount of how much of the tongue is planted on the roof of the mouth is irrelevant. |
No it isn't - if you cut off the air you won't get any notes to come out.
| Quote: | | Even if it were only the tip of the tongue it would still falsify the idea that there is some air channel over the tongue arch that is directing air to the aperture. |
It doesn't change that faster lip vibrations still have to be supported by faster air and a sufficient amount to support the sound you want however it gets there. It still gets directed to the aperture whatever path it takes.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'd like to find info about actual measurements of 'air speed' thru the lip embouchure?
I wonder how much the speed really does change when 'blowing harder' - does the speed of individual molecules increase, is the air more dense (compressed), lip opening later, etc.
When 'blowing harder', I do have the impression of attempting to increase the air speed, but it's difficult to feel what is really happening.
My thinking is that the tension of the lip surface primarily determine the pitch. There has to be enough force from air movement to cause the lip to vibrate, but will the same lip tension vibrate at a different pitch if just the speed of the air is changed?
There seems to be quite a bit of info regarding string instruments (e.g. violin) regarding 'bow speed', and from a very quick look, it seems to primarily affect the volume, and the harmonics (sound quality).
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LSOfanboy
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Don't want to get involved with any of the arguing here, but should address a few fallacies:
Speed of air does not determine the pitch. Pitch is affected by air pressure change (which itself is caused by compression of the air, not speed). If you genuinely don't change anything else and simply blow faster, you will find the note simply gets louder not higher. Besides, if speed of air was the sole way to increase pitch, we could all simply pick up a trumpet and 'blow faster' to blow higher.
Lip tension also does not determine pitch, a high frequency vibration can occur regardless of tension (often in spite of actually) in the lip. Again, if this fact were true we could also simply put a trumpet on our face, blow in a consistent manner and tighten our face up to ascend.
Doubtless several of the heavy posters on this thread will come forward to disagree with these statements, but the fact is that if they (anyone can) actually approach their statements logically and apply it to the trumpet in a consistent manner (without altering other variables) they will see that to support the notions that 'air speed or tension of lip determines the pitch' is incorrect.
All the best |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2596
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JayKosta wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | ... playing a high C with their tongue flat against the roof of their mouth I call bull.
...
By a yawn action I mean the action of the tongue/throat such as you can do with your teeth closed which lowers the tongue arch in the area farther back near the throat. You're not going to play high notes doing it. |
----------------------------------------
I agree that the position you describe above would make any playing very difficult or impossible. |
I was clarifying by what I mean by a "yawn position" - I was referring to the action of the tongue lowering since SteveDurand was talking about a full actual yawn and lowering his jaw - the jaw doesn't have to lower for the tongue to do a "yawn" action, my point being that if you lower the tongue in that way you're not going to get high notes - i.e. yes you do have to use increased tongue arch.
| Quote: | | When using a conventional jaw position, do you think that some MINIMUM amount of tongue arch must be used? Does that minimum amount vary among individuals? |
I'm not the one who was disputing that tongue arch is necessary. What's necessary is to meet the requirements to make a particular note come out with the desired tone and volume.
| Quote: | | And apparently you agree from your comment about Maurice Andre, that it is not necessary to consciously move the tongue into a particular position (since you said that MA didn't believe he used an arch). |
I'm sure many people do things that they're not fully aware they're doing - a lot of conventional brass pedagogy is based on that - doing exercises hoping the physical mechanisms adjust themselves more or less reflexively. Fixing my personal problems that plagued me was largely about becoming consciously aware of what was going on. However even if you're aware of it you can't really precisely measure what you're doing, you have to develop a feel for it. Your ear directs you.
Whether one is consciously aware of it or not it still has to happen.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SteveDurand
Regular Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Orange County, California
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
John Mohan,
Thanks for your input.
I originally learned that I could move my tongue around with no effect on the pitch when I was attempting to learn the "forward tongue arch".
I have read most of your posts on the subject over the last 5 years and was trying to apply that to my own playing to extend my range.
I was stuck on my highest reliable note being the D over high C for 45 years and I finally decided to figure out how to play higher. Trying to emulate what you wrote on the subject of tongue arch did not result in any change to my usable range. It did demonstrate to me that no matter what I did with my tongue, it did not affect the pitch. It certainly has an impact on other things such as tone quality and ability to articulate but on pitch? nope.
I ultimately solved my range issues in other ways.
Regarding the tongue arch being required in the higher ranges, I experimented some today and can confirm that I can play a solid double C with the forward part of my tongue planted against the roof of my mouth.
So, at least for myself, this disproves the idea that the tongue position controls the pitch.
Regarding your coffee stirrer experiment. I found that very interesting and creative. However, I don't see how you can reach the conclusion that because you use your tongue to confine the air to a limited area, that it logically follows that it has an effect on the pitch.
To avoid any misunderstanding, I am not saying that I typically play with my tongue at the roof of my mouth. I am sure that my normal tongue position is pretty conventional.
Thank you for the discussion |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SteveDurand
Regular Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Orange County, California
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: |
At any rate - the faster lip vibrations have to be supported by faster air. |
This is simply an assertion on your part without substantiation.
To paraphrase you from earlier in the thread; until you show me airspeed measurements of the inside of the mouth, I call bull. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2596
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SteveDurand wrote: | | So, at least for myself, this disproves the idea that the tongue position controls the pitch. |
The tongue position is only a facilitator of air speed. The faster lip vibrations happen because of increased tension of the tissue and supported by faster air.
No matter what you're doing with your tongue, if you're playing higher the faster air is getting to the hole between the lips and the tissue is reaching the required tension. If you have part of your tongue "pasted" against the roof of your mouth you've just changed the path of the stream, and I imagine have facilitated the faster air by squeezing it past the sides instead of between the top of the tongue and the roof of your mouth. The air is still flowing faster for the higher notes.
A shortcoming of even X-ray and MRI images is that they're fuzzy, 2D views of tissue that operates in 3 dimensions - the tongue muscle flexes and changes curvature. Whether it's visibly discernible or not the air is being affected.
To use an extreme example, play a G below the staff - then play a G over high C - you can't tell that there's a difference that you can feel in what your tongue arch is doing?
| Quote: | | To paraphrase you from earlier in the thread; until you show me airspeed measurements |
As has been pointed out it was based on the terminology you used to describe what you were doing - I took "paste it flat against" to mean what it sounds like.
And you still can't play a nice solid high C with your tongue in a yawn position.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: | ...
The tongue position is only a facilitator of air speed. The faster lip vibrations happen because of increased tension of the tissue and supported by faster air. ...
|
-----------------------------
When playing, there really isn't a need to be concerned with the 'speed', 'pressure', or 'compression' of the air - that's a technical distraction. What's needed is 'enough air' to vibrate the lip.
e.g. my more simple version is "The tongue position is only a facilitator of air. The faster lip vibrations happen because of increased tension of the tissue and supported by enough air".
For scientific knowledge, it is interesting to investigate what components contribute to 'enough air'. And perhaps when someone is having difficulty producing enough air, to know the pro/con physical actions that might be involved.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SteveDurand
Regular Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Orange County, California
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Jay Kosta,
I think that you have it just about right.
But saying "enough air" sort of implies volume of air to me. I think that the air needs to be at a high enough pressure to cause the more resistant aperture to vibrate.
That's why you need to blow harder as pitch rises. To raise the pressure. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SteveDurand wrote: | John Mohan,
Thanks for your input. |
You're very welcome!
| SteveDurand wrote: | | Regarding the tongue arch being required in the higher ranges, I experimented some today and can confirm that I can play a solid double C with the forward part of my tongue planted against the roof of my mouth. |
At first I was amazed you can do that. But then I tried and I found I can actually reach a double high Bb (with up and forward tongue arch) and then move the tip of my tongue up the way you describe and still sustain the note (though the power drops off a bit). I also tried playing in the range between High C and the G above it and again I could do it with my tongue in that awkward tip-up and back position, but it was not as secure and didn't sound as good as when I let my tongue arch up and forward. It feels as if when I move my tongue tip up to the roof of my mouth eliminating normal arch I have to compensate by rolling in my lips a bit and blowing even harder to maintain the note. And while I could reach a (rather wimpy) DHC when allowing my tongue to arch, I could not maintain that note unless I maintained my tongue arch.
| SteveDurand wrote: | | Regarding your coffee stirrer experiment. I found that very interesting and creative. However, I don't see how you can reach the conclusion that because you use your tongue to confine the air to a limited area, that it logically follows that it has an effect on the pitch. |
Well I can't be sure. But if it isn't helping effect the pitch, it is a heck of a coincidence. One thing I am absolutely certain about: When my tongue channels the air directly to the middle portion of my lips (the part that actually vibrates under the mouthpiece) this significantly reduces the amount of lip tension / corner strength I need to employ. I am sure this is one of the contributing factors to the good endurance I have (back in my Circus days, triple show days, and sometimes going several weeks without a day off was the norm).
| SteveDurand wrote: | | Thank you for the discussion |
You're welcome!
Cheers,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JetJaguar
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1518
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What is the relationship between tongue arch and anchor tonguing? The latter was prescribed to me a while ago.
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Robert P wrote: | Quote: | | No matter what you're doing with your tongue, if you're playing higher the faster air is getting to the hole between the lips and the tissue is reaching the required tension. If you have part of your tongue "pasted" against the roof of your mouth you've just changed the path of the stream, and I imagine have facilitated the faster air by squeezing it past the sides instead of between the top of the tongue and the roof of your mouth. The air is still flowing faster for the higher notes. |
The speed of the air approaching the aperture DOES NOT MATTER. And does not CAUSE anything.
There are three things:
1. The state of the lip aperture determines pitch.
2. The air pressure before the aperture controls the loudness of sound.
3. Air flow will result, depending on the resistance of the WHOLE system. But you need not know what that is. OR care. (Nor do you kneed to know, or care, what the "speed" of the air is. ANYWHERE.)
That is all, and it is THAT simple.
The air pressure, speed, flow ANYWHERE is NOT what determines the pitch, nor controls it in ANY way.
IF you could place your tongue in ANY position. Or even be absent a tongue, as long as you achieve a playable embouchure you can play the note that the embouchure is set for.
The tongue NATURALY moves forward for intense corner and bottom lip roll-out action due to the natural and physiological functions. Which is food processing, mastication, etc. THAT is why many players find benefit to ALLOWING the tongue to move naturally forward as one ascends. It is all but impossible not to for most lip postures as to ascend.
For players who use strong roll-out and corner action for aperture control,(A majority of players), the tongue action is increasingly required to ascend to very high pitches.
For embouchures that use pronounced roll-in actions, such as Walt-Johnson's high-gear, and John Lynch's altissimo style. A pronounced forward tongue arch is NOT required, even a detriment, for high notes.
Again, the tongue and lip functions are not arbitrary and are designed for specific purposes. Playing a brass instrument is certainly NOT one of them. That is something that humans have mobilized for a creative use. (And a small fraction of humans at that, and most of those poorly without tremendous amounts of practice). It is truly an arrogant and ignorant presumption to think that THE PURPOSE of the lips and tongue, teeth and breath, is to play a modern brass instrument.
If moving the tongue helps when you play the trumpet, THEN DO IT! That is ALL you need to know!
Please stop trying to "explain" pitch with "myths" and layman's junk science about air "speed" etc. that you haven't even measured, and air "explanations" that flies in the face of the KNOWN science of fluid dynamics. (Again, Bernoulli, Poiseuille, etc). That which you haven't even bothered to understand.
Please stop.
(I suppose if we had a video of Bernoulli or Poiseuille playing a double C some of you might be interested in what they had to say. Sad.)
Last edited by kalijah on Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
