Name some efficient horns

[tptguy]

In pursuit of efficient horns I've owned and gig tested most all the typical candidates like Dom made Callicchio 1S-7, Burbank Benge 3x, Callet Superchops, Olds Super, Conn 22B, King Liberty. If you are looking for the horn that will give you the biggest, most solid and in-tune core with top projection for the least effort then be sure to search out a Callet Sima, or the Callet New York Soloist which is similar but a pinch less efficient. The Sima and New York Soloist are Jerome's last two designs. IMO, it will be quite a few years until other makers catch up with these two trumpets.

[Brassnose]

I'd like to offer a different view. The most efficient horn is that in front of an efficient player. I used to be one of those more-air-more-power players with a very flat mouthpiece.

After getting back after a twelve year break I first got my chops back and then got a really good teacher hold taught me a few things including to hold my horn much lower to free up the upper lip to vibrate - tremendous effect! Plus I went through a pretty drastic embouchure change plus I also started bass trumpet, which is a good way of further training your air and embouchure (and ear for intonation).

Now, after all this, I play a solid high E above high C (getting higher in the practice room, but that is not always beautiful to hear ) in gigs with a good and pretty strong sound while before I had an OK but not always stable high C.

Mind you, this is on the same horn with a much deeper mp than what I used in the olden high power days (Yamaha 14a4a then vs. Klier USA 5C now, it even works with a Monette B6 but this mp does wear me out faster - need to work on air support).
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[LSOfanboy]

So I've remained quiet on this thread so far, mainly because I think the concept of an 'efficient' horn is quite flawed.

I thought I would share the following video to encourage some discussion. It was featured in another thread (maybe I even started that one, I don't remember) but the point here is that this young player is clearly incredibly efficient. Perhaps his trumpet is also 'efficient' but really it goes to prove the point that efficiency comes from the player- he's not playing any of the so-called efficient horns named above and yet, I wonder, how many people could demonstrate efficiency of this level? (It doesn't matter if you can't, but I'm suggesting that changing trumpet isn't going to be the difference between achieving it or not, if I'm making sense?)

https://youtu.be/1nPvs7XsdMA

If I was being cheeky, what's the most efficient horn? Whatever that kid is playing!

All the best

Edit 1 and 2:
1) Have just remembered a post by Alex Brain (the player in the link) saying he uses Shires trumpets.
2) There are numerous other players I could also have used as examples, but I just thought that was a particularly succinct video to demonstrate my point.

[Bill Ortiz]

While I agree that efficiency is partly due to the approach of the player, in my experience the horn is also an important factor. A few years ago I was looking for the right horn for the demands of the gig I was working on-same player and approach, same gig, same mouthpiece etc.. The horn choice is certainly a factor-I ended up at the time with an Olds Super, due to it's lead pipe and bell design. I aim to play efficiently on whatever horn I'm playing (now a Schilke) but horn choice does make a difference on many aspects playing, including efficency.
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'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA

[LSOfanboy]

[HERMOKIWI]

[OldSchoolEuph]

This topic seems to have gone in two directions – probably based on the OP’s definition of “efficient” as what works for him. There are really three considerations when speaking about efficiency in the playing experience.

When it copmes to perceived ease of play, “what works best” will vary depending on the style of the player. Many posts here and elsewhere seem fitted to that question. A player who manipulates their embouchure by force will prefer a lot of resistance, and will get the best tonal results from a heavier horn that wont over-blow. For that player, trying to be delicate so as not to distort or lose control takes a lot of effort, and range becomes very demanding to attain without the backpressure, thus tiring. BUT, for the finesse player who controls the embouchure with minimal MP pressure, has been gifted with exceptional muscle control, and can play a few octaves on a horn suspended on a string, an open blowing, fast responding horn is what they find easiest. There is no danger of overblowing with playing technique of this kind (what I think at least one poster was alluding to as “efficient” playing, though see my third point below in that regard), so the extra mass and extra resistance that work so well for others, are the more tiring situation for players of this type. Because different people can achieve amazing results in different ways, there is no “right” or “wrong” to this dichotomy, just different – which is why we have such variance in instruments that different people sound amazing (or the opposite) on.

Mechanical efficiency is a different matter, and is what some of us focused our answers on (not sure if rightly or wrongly). This is a matter of energy required or loss depending on how you want to look at it (glass half full/half empty = same thing). Brasswinds are filter-amplifiers. As (most) trumpets are not plugged in, the amplification results entirely from how efficient the filter is at mechanically directing undesirable frequency energy into the desirable spectrum. Much of the energy in the initial pink noise the embouchure interacting with the MP cup delivers is transformed mechanically into that spectrum, but a percentage is also lost to the imperfections in the system. These include wall disruptions sapping energy from the wave front, turbulence, damping effects due to material properties, acoustic couplings and the interference effects, mass placement and the propensity of that mass to resonate constructively, secondary resonances (and interference from), wave front losses based on expansion geometry in leadpipe and bell, mass placement to recover energy at key loss points, and a host of other details. The technology of trumpet design has made considerable leaps forward in the last few decades in this regard, and at the higher price points, this difference can really be noticed – more so by the finesse player than by the force player though.

Finally, returning to the issue of the efficient player, for both force and finesse players, ultimately the attainment of superior embouchure control, shaping of the body behind the embouchure (where Byron used to say half the work of tone production takes place) and refinement of one’s technique, all shape the frequency profile of that pink noise in the cup that the system has to work with. The more useful the input, the “easier” the desired output. That is true regardless of approach to playing or the mechanical efficiencies of the instrument.

For any player, endurance & ease of play will best be attained by recognizing where in the force to finesse spectrum one functions, identifying horns that have features suited to that playing method, identifying within the available options matching that criteria those in which the mechanical efficiencies have been optimized, and above all, refining one’s technique to provide the horn with the “raw material” it needs to do the job.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[J-Walk]

I think it is too personal a thing to just plug your existing Monette mouthpiece into a tighter, “more efficient” horn and expect results. I have found that the type of playing I am doing dictates what “efficient” means. I play a different horn and mouthpiece for lead playing than I do for orchestral and classical. The mouthpiece and horns are very different between the two setups, but provide me the “balance” between blow, slotting, and feel that help me achieve the appropriate sound for the various idioms.

Balance between player, horn, and mouthpiece is the end goal in what we often call “efficiency.” For some, efficient means large bore horns and mouthpieces with bigger throats. For some it is the resistance of heavier equipment, and for some, smaller and tighter is key. For others it is a combination of these things. It is a worthwhile journey if you have the help or knowledge you need to figure this all out. If you do not, my suggestion is to stay in the “middle of the road” with equipment and put your focus on practicing with efficiency.
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Jason Rahn
——————
Burbank Benge MLP 3X+
Adams A5
Larson Brasswerks “Reese” Model C
Schilke P5-4 picc
Courtois 154 flugel
A few mouthpieces that fit my face and horns

[scottfsmith]

Thanks OldSchoolEuph, interesting points. A year or two ago I was one of those "force" players but after taking a year of lessons with a leading "finesse" player I am in that school now (well, learning it at least). So it sounds like your opinion is the lightweight horns will give me the most efficiency.

J-Walk, one reason why I got a Monette mouthpiece is the advice of my teacher. He feels that would add a boost to my efficiency. At first it was in fact harder to play, but after some time on it I find its paying off. One way to think about it is a Monette mouthpiece forces you to either join the finesse camp, or to put it back in the drawer (right, Monette players?).

In general I agree the player is the biggest part of the equation by far. Today I can play much more efficiently on a beater student horn than I could have played on any horn two years ago. But once you are making progress on an efficient embouchure and mouthpiece you start thinking about an efficient horn. I'm probably not going to go out and buy a new horn any time soon, more just trying to understand what people feel about horns and efficiency.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

[OldSchoolEuph]

[Craig Swartz]

Name some efficient horns?

Okay. A 1969 Schilke B3 and a Gen 1 Yamaha Chicago C. Also a Schilke P5-4. At least with the mouthpiece set-ups I'm using.

[Yamahaguy]

[TKSop]

[bach_again]

I can name efficient players....
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https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk

Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals

The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU

[scottfsmith]

[oliver king]

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LB Bel Canto #59
Holton B47
Frankenhorn projects 1-5
Adams F1
Olds Super Tenor Trombone
Alesis QS8
B2MS3, B2GS3,

[Bill Ortiz]

LSO, your points are very valid :) I agree that in discussing efficiency in playing, the player is more of a factor than the horn. I was just adding my point to say that horn selection can be a factor. I'm also including the mouthpiece and gap as well when talking about equipment.

Supporting your point, a number of years ago I had some dental work done replacing a crown in front, resulting in an embouchure change and having to go back to the drawing board and reestablishing fundamentals-including focusing on efficiency. The result is that after I endured the transition process (while touring) I ended up being a more constant and better player. One's setup can help a player be more efficient, but I agree that first and foremost it's approach.
_________________
'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA

[bach_again]

[J-Walk]

[scottfsmith]