Systematic Diagnostics For Sluggish Valves

[Abraxas]

I have a Martin Indiana cornet I really enjoy playing but the valves keep hanging on it. I've tried several different oils and cleaning. The springs are good and strong. I'm wondering what you folks do as far as diagnosing causes of poor valve rebound. It only happens during slow passages. Many thanks as usual for your advice and wisdom.

[zaferis]

If they're worn but move well when you push them down perfectly straight, then I'd say that you're pulling or pushing the valve at an angle when you're playing, especially when playing slow passages. With old valves that have some play, a little off center push can hang them up. Probably the earlier owner/player pushed differently.

When you say clean.. does that mean a "Chem" clean? or just a bath at home?
Chem cleans or Sonic cleans can remove hidden, hard to get at build ups and corrosion.

They may be worn so much that the only answer will be a valve job. When you pull a valve slide off, (1st or 3rd) does it hold compression? - pop? Or can you hear air escaping?-that's a big sign of worn valves and or slides.

Have you tried a thicker oil? "vintage" or one of my favorite tricks is Yamaha trombone slide lubricant. It's slick enough to work while thick enough to fill in some gap.

Once in a while, on an instrument, that I have nothing to lose with.. I've done the DIY valve lapping/cleaning with toothpaste (like old school Crest)- (there is also a commercial powder available - like a fine jewelers rouge) coating the valve, working it in the instrument, then thoroughly clean.. If there's a build up of something or stuck foreign object this might help, but if wear is the problem then you could be making things worse.

After being absolutely sure that the trumpet is clean and free of gunk, and the problem still exists, then professional help seems likely.

And sometimes there is no fix.. I had an early 80's Yamaha Flugelhorn that I bought new, and kept for 25 years 'cause I liked the sound. The valves were never good or trustworthy - I tried all sorts of fixes, to include work at a BIG name brass shop - all to no avail. I finally just got rid of it.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[Abraxas]

Zaferis.... I can't remember if I chem cleaned it (CLR) or just a bath. I do have several grades of lapping compound but it's oil based and a real chore to clean up after. I've tried Hetmans 3.... 2 and blue juice. I think next move will be another (or 1st) chem clean.... and then toothpaste if the clean doesn't work. Got the horn cheap ... like $40 so no huge loss if I screw it up but would of course prefer not to. It's one of my favourites.

[LittleRusty]

My ‘72 Strad had issues with sticking on the upstroke, most often in slow passages. The problem was, and is, worn valves.

If one isn’t careful to press the valve exactly vertical the oil film is broken causing the valve to stick, especially when the oil has time to move when the valve is down longer. Personally I think this is the origin of the theory that the previous owner pressed them differently.

On the recommendation of YourBrass I tried Berp Bio Oil for vintage instruments. The issue went away.

If your issue is loose fitting valves you should consider that lapping them will only make it worse.

[CJceltics33]

1) clean them well

2) use La Tromba oil

3) wipe down valves before every Time you oil

[Abraxas]

OK, I got two oil recommendations now. I'll give Berp a go first, as I've heard it come up before. As I have some ultra high precision micrometers for measuring the pistons but not for the bore, I might finally make the investment in a dial bore gauge and take some measurements. Of course this approach will not detect bore warps or bumps or residues though. I'll try the cheap and simple first and that is a regular clean followed by Berp. If that doesn't work. it's chem clean time and oil again.... finally take some measurements to see what i have. I hope there is only one kind of Berp oil and any links are appreciated.

[Abraxas]

OK, just determined Berp comes in 3 viscosities. i take it I'm to use the heaviest and a link to a supplier is appreciated... thanks. I also see La Tromba comes in many viscosities, so a little more precision in the recommendations is appreciated.

[Abraxas]

CJceltics33 I studied precision instruments many decades ago and we had at our disposal "Lint free cloths'. They were actually a disposable tissue. One of the problems i find with keeping the valves clean and oiled is that everything sticks to oil. Consider, for example, that a human hair is in between 2 and 3 thousandths of an inch but I'm told the piston valve clearance on a pro horn is only 2 tenths of a thousandth - I never did hear whether that's a side or on the diameter - and one can understand how just a tiny smidgeon of anything can bind them up. I guess these tight tolerances are supposed to allow the pistons to push dirt out of the way perhaps and exclude it from the space between sliding parts.

[JayKosta]

If the valves work OK when freshly cleaned and oiled, then there likely aren't any 'too tight interference' locations on the pistons or casings. If the sticking starts after playing for a while, then the oil is somehow being removed from some locations.

I suggest using a heavier oil, and if necessary dilute it slightly to give acceptable valve action.

Check the edges of the piston and casing port opening with finger tip to detect any slight burrs. And also the bottom edge of the piston body.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[gwood66]

Here is my experience with sticking/slow valves on my Olds Super and Reynolds Professional (both build in the 60s).

- started with an home cleaning
- cleaned valve casings and valves with acetone (basic finger nail polish remover) to remove deposits
- Moved to ultrasonic cleaning
- used several different valve oils (Hetman 1 2 & 3, Berp, Al Cass, old bottle of Holton, Yamaha etc.)
- cleaned valves and casing prior to each time I played

Nothing worked for me until I switched to Monster Oil. Now I use it on all my horns. Your mileage may vary.

[Abraxas]

OK, so I now have 3 different oil recommendations. Do any of you have: Links to your recommendations and; Where the oil comes in different grades or viscosities, which one do you mean ? Thanks

[Turkle]

Caveat: I loved Berp at first, but it does tend to build up on your valves, and eventually it caused mine to stick even worse than before.

Now I use Yamaha Vintage on my older horns.
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Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.

[James Becker]

[gwood66]

http://www.monsteroil.net/shop-all/

I use original, the slide oil and grease. You can get it in a bundle.

[Manuel de los Campos]

The solution for my ever hanging 2nd valve on a 5 year old horn with Baurnfeind valves turned out to be Binak 495

My Olds Super had worn out valves, the valves didn't hang though

My Getzen Capri gets sticky valves when oiled with La Tromba Light. With Binak 495 or Al Cass Fast they don't stick anymore, the valves are not worn out at all: excellent compression
My other Getzens like La Tromba Light though, they got sticky valves with Binak 495 I cannot find any explaination for this

Valves are mysterious items...
_________________
Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs)

[delano]

Binak works well on worn valves.
Tromba light is very good (the best?) valve oil for good horns.