| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3308
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:42 am Post subject: |
 |
|
About 'valve alignment' - it's more than just 'mechanical measuring' and 'moving'. A BIG part is (should be) actual playing the instrument and finding the best compromise positions for the valves.
NOTE: this is MY amateur opinion!
A simple DIY test is to carefully listen to the sound quality and responsiveness using all the valve combinations. If some combinations are obviously better or worse than others, then that might indicate that an alignment might help. If all the combinations are 'good' and 'even', then it's more of a 'maybe' that an alignment would make a noticeable difference.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3636
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
The 4335G is a so-called "mid-line" instrument. A step up from the student horns, but not as expensive as a pro horn. The valves aren't fit as tightly as the pro Yamahas, which is one difference.
But if it plays for you, all I would do is get a clean out done, doesn't have to be ultrasonic, and get the valve felts replaced and the waterkey corks. This is often overlooked, but a new waterkey cork, (real cork) lightly seated, is the best small tweak you can give it. It plays better.
-Lionel
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| amymustijujitsumyma wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | My suspicion would be that you're more in-sync with the 4335 than with the 8335... putting in the hours on a particular horn (or mouthpiece) will naturally make it easier to just pick up and play than an unfamiliar one.
If you like the 4335 how it is then I wouldn't bother with trying to modify it - a good horn is a good horn.... besides which, what exactly are you hoping to achieve?
Trying modifications for the hell of it might be fun, but the whole point of modification (of anything) is to take something and change it in a particular direction you want/need - if you don't particularly want/need a specific change then any modifications are going to be (by definition!!) aimless. |
Thanks!
I think you may be right - hahaha well put, I totally agree, re the whole having a point- I do have aims for the modifications:
so the only main down point for the 4335g is that the top range is a little more tight and tricky to produce a good sound with ( talking around and, mostly, above the high c)
so i'd really like to open that up, have it sounding a little more "smooth" , that's the one thing i really feel the xeno has on the 4335 and i also prefer the sliightly darker tone of the 4335g(the rose brass? maybe? i don't usually put much stead in materials, but it's also a fair bit heavier)
i was originally thinking it'd be great to darken the tone of the xeno with just a rounded tuning slide, as it is a lovely horn to play, but then it struck me that the money the xeno represents could be put to greater use possibly by just making slightly more extensive slide changes on my old student horn - it's been a couple weeks of playing and thinking and reading so i just wanted to open this up to the wider, and far more knowledgable, community on here
thanks so much for the feedback |
How does the xeno play (for you) in that troublesome high register?
Are those notes comfortable usually, for you, on other horns?
I often find upper register ease and intonation (the two are strongly linked, IME!) is where pro grade horns really show why they're more expensive.
You might get the 4335 there with mods, you might not, but you may find you lose something else in the process.
If it were me (personally!) I'd play the xeno exclusively for a few weeks, then take recordings of both and have some trusted ears listen to you on both - sometimes what we hear as extra brightness is really just better feedback...
Failing that, a darker mouthpiece might well do what you want to the Xeno without getting into custom slides and so on - mouthpieces can have more effect AND they're easier to get hold of secondhand (so much cheaper) and easier to sell if they're not your bag (at less of a loss, too!). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vince.Green
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 148
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I have a lot of experience with the Yamaha horns. A big difference is the 4335, 5335 and 6335 are all medium weight horns (The 8335 is heavier gauge). While the 4335 is marketed as an intermediate horn, it shares many characteristics with the pro line. It can have a touch more resistance than the pro models but I have many students with the mid line Yamahas and think they are an excellent playing horn, on par with the pro line if you like the blow. Play what works best. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| amymustijujitsumyma wrote: | | OndraJ wrote: | The 4335G is made in China. Everything beyond (5335, 6335, 8335...) is made in Japan.
If you like the 4335, go for it and spend the money in lessons (or woman, or mouthpieces 
Worth a try is the 5335G, it's made in Japan, has the valves of the 6335 and the bell of the 4335G. Many goldbrass parts.
I have never played or seen a "tuned" 4335G horn. |
the 4335g is in fact a japan made horn! at least my one is ( it says so on the valve block) yet another thing that makes me wonder if it's a bit of a gem
lessons yesyes indeed, i still get 'em every now and then, mouthpiece forsure would be another thing i would upgrade, any thoughts on upgrading tubes/pipes/slides? sorry for the inquisition, and of course nae bother if thats not something you have much to say about - i've just never modded a horn before and wonder about it, i mean if people do it surely it must be somethign that CAN work ( whether or not it would in my position i guess is the million dollar question)
thanks for the response! |
My take on this: modification of any horn may or may not give you a positive result....which depends on your definition of “positive.”
Generally, I think that changing almost anything on a horn that WAS NOT DESIGNED THAT WAY TO BEGIN WITH is a crap shoot. If I had a horn I really liked but it needed mechanical repairs, sure, but personally I have had not the best luck in messing around with original horn design.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brad361 wrote: | | amymustijujitsumyma wrote: | | OndraJ wrote: | The 4335G is made in China. Everything beyond (5335, 6335, 8335...) is made in Japan.
If you like the 4335, go for it and spend the money in lessons (or woman, or mouthpieces
Worth a try is the 5335G, it's made in Japan, has the valves of the 6335 and the bell of the 4335G. Many goldbrass parts.
I have never played or seen a "tuned" 4335G horn. |
the 4335g is in fact a japan made horn! at least my one is ( it says so on the valve block) yet another thing that makes me wonder if it's a bit of a gem
lessons yesyes indeed, i still get 'em every now and then, mouthpiece forsure would be another thing i would upgrade, any thoughts on upgrading tubes/pipes/slides? sorry for the inquisition, and of course nae bother if thats not something you have much to say about - i've just never modded a horn before and wonder about it, i mean if people do it surely it must be somethign that CAN work ( whether or not it would in my position i guess is the million dollar question)
thanks for the response! |
My take on this: modification of any horn may or may not give you a positive result....which depends on your definition of “positive.”
Generally, I think that changing almost anything on a horn that WAS NOT DESIGNED THAT WAY TO BEGIN WITH is a crap shoot. If I had a horn I really liked but it needed mechanical repairs, sure, but personally I have had not the best luck in messing around with original horn design.
Brad |
Depends on the horn in my experience...
Lest we forget, there's often an element of trial and error in design processes - what works best for the most players is often what makes it to market.
This doesn't mean that variations on the theme don't work automatically, but perhaps indicates that you're likely to favour them... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TKSop wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | amymustijujitsumyma wrote: | | OndraJ wrote: | The 4335G is made in China. Everything beyond (5335, 6335, 8335...) is made in Japan.
If you like the 4335, go for it and spend the money in lessons (or woman, or mouthpieces
Worth a try is the 5335G, it's made in Japan, has the valves of the 6335 and the bell of the 4335G. Many goldbrass parts.
I have never played or seen a "tuned" 4335G horn. |
the 4335g is in fact a japan made horn! at least my one is ( it says so on the valve block) yet another thing that makes me wonder if it's a bit of a gem
lessons yesyes indeed, i still get 'em every now and then, mouthpiece forsure would be another thing i would upgrade, any thoughts on upgrading tubes/pipes/slides? sorry for the inquisition, and of course nae bother if thats not something you have much to say about - i've just never modded a horn before and wonder about it, i mean if people do it surely it must be somethign that CAN work ( whether or not it would in my position i guess is the million dollar question)
thanks for the response! |
My take on this: modification of any horn may or may not give you a positive result....which depends on your definition of “positive.”
Generally, I think that changing almost anything on a horn that WAS NOT DESIGNED THAT WAY TO BEGIN WITH is a crap shoot. If I had a horn I really liked but it needed mechanical repairs, sure, but personally I have had not the best luck in messing around with original horn design.
Brad |
Depends on the horn in my experience...
Lest we forget, there's often an element of trial and error in design processes - what works best for the most players is often what makes it to market.
This doesn't mean that variations on the theme don't work automatically, but perhaps indicates that you're likely to favour them... |
Good points.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
amymustijujitsumyma
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2018
Posts: 28
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | It takes a great deal of experience trying different horns and features, and then experimenting with them in different situations (horns) and then years of detailed analysis to start to get a rudimentary sense of how individual elements interact differently with each other in different combinations to even begin to understand how to modify a horn. I hang out with some leading names in restoration, recreation, design and fabrication so that I can try to learn from them, but the more they generously share, the more I realize that I don't know.
Sure, you can always try things - but do not try anything you cannot reverse. And I would start by playing on a lot of friends' horns, go to the exhibits at ITG, etc. and play what is there. Maybe make a pilgrimage to Dillon Music. Then, spend time figuring out what the commonalities were in the experiences that stood out to you and that will give you some toe-hold on where to start trying mods.
But don't start changing things up based on internet chatter. The trumpet is far too complex a system for the generalities you find here. |
maaaan thankyou - super useful - will think about all these reccommendations!!! was planning on heading up to spencer trumpets very soon ( i'm in the UK sadly as far as the dillon music thing goes) once again massive thanks to you all for the input - there's a tonne of knowledge on here to be thought about! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| amymustijujitsumyma wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | It takes a great deal of experience trying different horns and features, and then experimenting with them in different situations (horns) and then years of detailed analysis to start to get a rudimentary sense of how individual elements interact differently with each other in different combinations to even begin to understand how to modify a horn. I hang out with some leading names in restoration, recreation, design and fabrication so that I can try to learn from them, but the more they generously share, the more I realize that I don't know.
Sure, you can always try things - but do not try anything you cannot reverse. And I would start by playing on a lot of friends' horns, go to the exhibits at ITG, etc. and play what is there. Maybe make a pilgrimage to Dillon Music. Then, spend time figuring out what the commonalities were in the experiences that stood out to you and that will give you some toe-hold on where to start trying mods.
But don't start changing things up based on internet chatter. The trumpet is far too complex a system for the generalities you find here. |
maaaan thankyou - super useful - will think about all these reccommendations!!! was planning on heading up to spencer trumpets very soon ( i'm in the UK sadly as far as the dillon music thing goes) once again massive thanks to you all for the input - there's a tonne of knowledge on here to be thought about! |
In the UK there are 3 places you'd go for quality custom horns... Eclipse, Taylor and Will Spencer.
There's a few decent shops about but always worth checking what they have before you go. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
amymustijujitsumyma
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2018
Posts: 28
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
[/quote]How does the xeno play (for you) in that troublesome high register?
Are those notes comfortable usually, for you, on other horns?[/quote]
the xeno does have more security in that register for me, and i guess it's easier to produce good volume and tone there with it which is of course important - when i first played it i was completely smitten with it - it was only after getting my old student model back that I started to have these thoughts that maybe the 4335 was worth holding onto and investing in -(after reading through the advice i think i was wrong , as good a horn as it)
I would say previously i was consistent up to high C but not much higher with ease or without the sound degrading, then i worked with a horn i straight up disliked and couldn't get it on with, eventually got my high C back after a few months - I got the chance to swap up for a xeno and i was shocked at my range and the feel of the whole thing, my range had increased tremendously and the c is very very comfy, the e and f give me a challenge but if i warm up real nice i can get there, it's also a little looser
I think you're totally right - I will do exactly as you've described but to be honest i think this whole thing has probs convinced me to go back to the xeno, it is a cracking horn - i guess i was just surprised at how well the 4335g compared and how close it was and got the silly idea that i might be able to mod it up to something above the standard of a xeno - bit of a "pipe dream" if you will (ultimate dad pun)
i guess in conclusion
1) the mob is right , the yamaha 4335 IS a good horn and for some reason i get on with it very well, most likely because it was my first trumpet, it's well made and i'm atuned to it , i guess i got suuuper lucky there!
2) the xeno DOES play better i suppose, equal in all but valves and the tone i'm getting, it's a new horn so maybe the valves will settle in and, as for tone, as TKSop said, i should take more time with it
3)perhaps the resistance on the 4335 is my problem with higher register, i am fairly sure if i spent time with it i could overcome it but i'm basically handing myself either a challenge of overcoming that hurdle with practice or with a very complicated and risky procedure of modifying the horn - why bother i suppose when i do have a xeno which will realistically prove more fruitful without mods ( okay maybe the m/k tuning slide though still!!! )
thankyou gang! i will, i think, hold onto the xeno, i remember my gut reaction when i first played it was "wow!amazing!" and i do still think it's incredible to play compared to other horns i've found - the 4335g IS also very very good to play and i am still shocked that it can hold it's own so well BUT that alone doesn't qualify it for the position of my sole horn -
i guess i am essentially dealing with that classic consumer concept of diminishing returns in releation to price tag - regardless the xeno is i feel the way to go now. thanks to you all you brainy bunch- done a massiveturnaround as a result of posting on here and have a lot to think about so thanks for the knowledge and i guess...we...won? did we win this forum thread? i think we did ...
for real thanks so hard you lot!!! would love to say i'll offer my 2 cents on posts in future but i fear my knowledge base is quite a bit lower than you all - if i've not acknowledged any of these replies then my apologies as everything here has been super useful big love! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
amymustijujitsumyma
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2018
Posts: 28
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
oh and JayKosta
thanks, very helpful stuff on the valve alignment test! good to know in future as well probs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
amymustijujitsumyma
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2018
Posts: 28
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JayKosta the corks? really? so simple!! awesome i will also bear this in mind, thanks for the advice! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| amymustijujitsumyma wrote: |
thankyou gang! i will, i think, hold onto the xeno, i remember my gut reaction when i first played it was "wow!amazing!" and i do still think it's incredible to play compared to other horns i've found - the 4335g IS also very very good to play and i am still shocked that it can hold it's own so well BUT that alone doesn't qualify it for the position of my sole horn -
|
Have you run into honeymoon periods before?
This is a commonly experienced phenomena with mouthpieces (but you get it with horns too), basically goes like this:
1) You play something and first impressions blow you away.
2) The following couple of weeks it's good but you're not blown away quite the same and begin to wonder whether your initial impression was wrong.
3) Temptation pushes you into trying previously familiar kit and the familiarity factor makes that feel comfortable and perform pretty well, adding to doubts.
4) You work through it anyway, pay attention and things improve noticeably - the surprise element of being blown away may not be there, but it's back to the kind of performance that sold you on it to begin with.
5) Live happily ever after.
Where many go wrong in this process, IMHO:
1) If you're not blown away immediately, it's less likely to be fruitful changing in the long run (unless it's done for specific reasons!) - if you persevere in spite of this, the doubts in step 2 and 3 are much stronger... If these doubts lead to lapsed concentration (especially to breathing) and loss of motivation to practice, this can be quite destructive.
2) Failing to work through 2 and instead trying something else new in search of the "blown-away" wow factor can lead to almost endless safari's.
3) Surrender to temptation at 3 and you'll discard the change... And never know what might have been (this is/was where it sounds like you are/were)
4) Allowing enough time - this can take weeks or even a month or two - longer than that and perhaps it's a deadend but you don't want to be giving up on it too quickly.
Ultimately, gear changes need aim, time and commitment.
To see positive results you need to be changing in search of something and be able to reflect on whether the change was wise or not - you need to give it time (preferably exclusively, if not then for longer time) to get to a sensible place to reflect from (reflection is for the end of a process and not the middle!).
Knowing how this process goes can help keep you calm and focused.
Choosing to make the switch at times when you know commitments (gigs, auditions, etc) shouldn't tempt you into switching back will help you commit properly to it and improve your odds, it'll also prevent you getting into stressful situations as much, which should help prevent panic losses of concentration.
Switching can be fun, but fun shouldn't be the primary objective - don't switch too often, trust your first impressions as far as you reasonably can in whether to commit to a switch and try to maintain the same discipline regardless of what you're using.
All the best 👍 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1550
Location: Virginia USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I read through this thread when I was looking for something else, but as someone who played a YTR-4335G for many years (when the music I played and my trumpet ambitions were more limited than now), here are my thoughts and a few corrections.
1. The YTR-4335G has a gold brass bell as I understand it, not rose brass. I feel this makes a contribution to the sound and has a certain warming effect, at least when I play my horn. I always liked the sound I could produce on that horn within its limits. There is a quality to it that I miss sometimes. (Kind of keeps me searching for horns!)
2. My YTR-4335G from around 2001 was made in Japan. 12 years ago? I think it is probably a Japanese made horn. Check the stamp on the 2nd valve. These are well made horns.
3. The 4335G plays very well for me in the staff, still does and I still like the sound I get out of it. As I go above the staff the horn seems to tighten up. I have tried a lot of horns and there are many that have this characteristic, even pro horns. I suspect many players like it and that it is by design. I do not like it and it appears that the OP does not care for this characteristic either. I have gravitated to horns that play more evenly throughout (for me that is, maybe not for everyone). I had to become a better player and play a lot of horns to figure out that this characteristic was bothering me and then find trumpets that I was more comfortable with. When looking for a horn now, it is a characteristic I take into account. (I can make the 4335 do what I want, but it is a lot more work than the horns with the characteristics I like.)
4. Modifications: I thought of trying to bring the 4335G to a better place through modifications to use as a backup horn. First modifications I wanted to do were valve alignment and metal valve guides -- but I found out the latter was not possible. You cannot get them. The 4335G guides are different from the pro horn guides. (At the same time, I was also looking into improvements to my low end bass trumpet, again not much luck -- it is what it is). Thinking more about it, I realized I could put a fair amount of money into the horn and not get what I wanted. I decided, it was probably better to look for a different horn that had the basic characteristics I wanted rather than spend money on the 4335G.
5. Suggestion: go to stores and shows and play a lot of horns, or borrow them if you can. Play horns your teacher has. You will discover things you like and dislike. You will get familiar with the range of characteristics available. There is the pure luck aspect of this because of inconsistencies in horns by some makers (though Yamaha is famous for its consistency), but if you keep a list of what you like and dislike and the horns, you can eventually start looking for a good price on one you like. This might be a better path than trying to make the 4335 something is was not meant to be.
6. I still have my 4335 and even my original Olds Ambassador. It is fun every once and awhile to go back and play them. I discover things I did not know and sometimes it tells me that improvements I have made to my playing can overcome what I once thought were deficits in the horns. Other times, the limitations of the horns become clearer, but they do offer a kind of measuring stick.
It goes without saying that a great player can make anything sound good, but there are times when the right equipment helps us poor mortals.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BraeGrimes
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 269
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| amymustijujitsumyma wrote: |
the 4335g is in fact a japan made horn! at least my one is ( it says so on the valve block) yet another thing that makes me wonder if it's a bit of a gem
|
At one stage they were made in Japan; now made in China (personally, I think he Chinese ones are far more consistent, thought I haven't played the two side by side to tell you which is better). Worth noting that Yamaha isn't simply getting the 2, 3, and 4, series made in China - they're making them in China (they own the factory, have control over use of parts etc.). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
