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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:47 pm Post subject: Suggestions for valve oil for Kanstul 1525 flugel? |
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Recently in a discussion of this horn I read a comment to the effect that the poster was not a fan of Kanstul valves. I've never had a problem until now with mine. The flugel is about 10 years old. The tech doesn't see anything wrong, and yet once in awhile (very infrequently) the first valve will stay down a fraction of a second before popping back up.
I use UltraPure oil (the newer formula) from Dillon's.
My hand position is pretty good / centered, so I don't think that's the issue but I do realize every player has a personal 'slant' as they depress valves, and this could be what's happening over time.
So, in search of 100% performance instead of the 99.5% I'm getting, I thought I would ask here if anyone who has this horn has a recommendation.
Thanks in advance. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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I have had success with Berp Bio Oil Light on my 1525. I don't play nearly as much (or as well) as you, though. I know you play almost exclusively flugel so after 10 years that is a lot of use. Since it is the first valve I wonder about leadpipe deposits finding their way into the valve. You say your tech sees nothing wrong, and I imagine he knows how much you play. So there's no harm in trying a different oil, but I would make sure everything is as clean as possible from the old lubricant before trying a different oil.
After 10 years of performing on the one horn, maybe getting another one is justifiable? If you really love the 1525 you might want to try to find another before the supply disappears as Kanstul is looking to become history. Another option is a Flip Oakes flugel - being very similar to the Kanstul and made my them.
You are a terrific talent and I love your stuff. You deserve a new horn! _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I have used Al Cass oil on all my horns for more than thirty years. Every time I try a different brand I am disappointed.
Best wishes,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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BerpBio Oil #2 or #3, Hetman 2 or 3 will work as well.
Kanstul fit their valves on the loose side and that only increases with wear. There has to be a barrier between piston and casing. That, and oiling every day you play.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Matt,
Before you change anything, clean the horn really well. If there is gunk in the transfer ports between the valves, be sure to snake them out thoroughly. If you don't already have them, buy the blue microfiber towels from the cleaning aisle at Home Depot and use them to scrub and swab the casing bores and pistons. If you have a valve cleaning rod, use that to wind the clean dry towel tightly through each casing.
Swab the bores with cider vinegar several times and soak the pistons in it for 30 minutes. Then oil them and see if that doesn't help. If the synthetic components of your oil have built up over the years and are fouling the piston, this should remove them. The vinegar won't hurt the valves at all.
If they still stick like before, take off the valve buttons and grasp each of the valve stems. Try to move them from side to side and back and forth. If you can see any movement where the stem goes through the top cap, it may be that that valve is worn and needs to be rebuilt. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, Kanstul has always lapped their valves to a 0.001" clearance between the pistons and casings. That is why they often need time to "break in." If Kanstul valves are not tight, they are either worn or have been "lapped all to hell," as Zig used to say, by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4810
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:25 am Post subject: |
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trpthrld wrote: | The only oil recommendation I ever heard Zig give was to NOT use Al Cass.
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I love Al Cass, it's brought me lots of work to do. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:07 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | trpthrld wrote: | The only oil recommendation I ever heard Zig give was to NOT use Al Cass.
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I love Al Cass, it's brought me lots of work to do. |
I used Al Cass for years. My valves often had a minor seize when I removed the horn from the case after it sat for a few days. Nothing serious, they worked fine after the first press and re-oiling.
However, that never happens with Hetmans. |
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hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:54 am Post subject: |
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From a recent purchase of Yamaha trpt I was introduced to Yamaha synthetic valve oil. I tried it on my Kanstul Cornet that has aways been a tad slow and a Lawler Flugel which also is slow. Neither horns had sticking valves. The Yamaha oil greatly improved the action of both the Kanstul and the Lawler. _________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8336 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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In my opinion, how well a valve oil can work can vary not only from person to person, but horn to horn played by the same person.
Case in point:
After giving up Al Cass, I used Ultra Pure on all my horns. Worked great.... except on my Radial. So, I tried Yamaha Synthetic (Regular) and that works awesome on it. I also tried it on my other horns and it maybe works the same or only a couple percentage points better on them, not really noticeable. My Benge doesn't really care, the valves work with any oil, so far.
So, it's worth exploring if you're not satisfied with the performance on a given horn. Yamaha, Hetman, maybe Monster Oil are my recommendations aside from Ultra Pure, which you're already using. There are several other good ones out there, but those are the ones I've used personally and like. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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stevericks Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Lots of good advice. I own a 1525 - best flugelhorn out in my book. As others said, give the valves and valve casings, including ports a super good cleaning. Possibly use Dawn dishwashing to remove any oil and then give it an extra heavy rinse. Oil with a different brand valve oil than what you have used in the past. I use Bluejuice, but any leading brand is fine. Let us know how it turns out. _________________ Steve
Olds, Kanstul, Bach |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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stevericks wrote: | Lots of good advice. I own a 1525 - best flugelhorn out in my book. As others said, give the valves and valve casings, including ports a super good cleaning. Possibly use Dawn dishwashing to remove any oil and then give it an extra heavy rinse. Oil with a different brand valve oil than what you have used in the past. I use Bluejuice, but any leading brand is fine. Let us know how it turns out. |
For those wishing to clean the ports using a normal snake, cleaning them with the valves in will allow one to direct the snake through the various ports by using the different valve combinations. Removing the valve crooks allows shorter access than going through the mouthpipe. |
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irememberchet Regular Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2006 Posts: 61 Location: Tecumseh, MI
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:13 pm Post subject: Valve oil for Kanstul 1525 |
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Hi Matt,
Another vote here for Berp Bio Oil. I used Ultra Pure synthetic for years, but at the urging of a couple of friends, gave Berp Bio Oil a try. It has a very pleasant citrus smell, is plant based, and seems to last longer on both my trumpet and flugelhorn valves (I also own a Kanstul 1525) than any other valve oil I have tried. It lubricates exceptionally well, and it lasts and lasts!
Just my two cents! _________________ Richard Harris
Monette MF Prana
1940 Martin Handcraft Committee #3 Large Bore
Yamaha 8335 LA II Bergeron Custom
Yamaha 8340 EM Eric Miyashiro
Schilke Handcraft HC1
Taylor Phatboy Flugelhorn |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all for the great advice here.
veery715, you're very kind. I do prefer flugelhorn to other instruments but I don't play as much anymore and I'm sure my flugel is not yet worn out. The compression is still outstanding.
I've also at different times tried most of what has been mentioned here. I do like the Ultra Pure on my various trumpets but perhaps I should try some others on the flugel and see. I always had good results with Tromba T2 and only switched when it became unavailable sometimes. I still have some and I'll try that again.
There are two comments about how tight Kanstul valves are. The first says they are loose and a thicker Hetman oil (2 or 3) will work. I tend to agree with the second comment that Kanstul valves seem very tight to me - close tolerances. I would think Hetman #1 might be a better choice. I have used that on new horns.
Never had any luck with Al Cass but don't flame me for this. I really detest Yamaha oil and their slide grease even more (even on my Yamaha trumpets). Bluejuice can leave more residue than I like. But I respect that these things work for some of you.
Berp Bio Oil is intriguing; never tried that.
And thank you for the various recommendations on cleaning the horn (especially before trying another oil brand). This topic is always a favorite here as we all have our routines (some of which make sense). I assure you, my horns are cleaned thoroughly every few months. I use vinegar and Dawn, microfiber cloths, cleaning swabs (love Tim's), valve brush etc. etc.
I think I'll try the T2 first, then Hetman #1. If I learn anything useful, I will post back. Again, many thanks for all your advice.
matt _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I've used Monster oil with success and mostly use Hetman.
At a trumpet clinic Wayne Tanabe of Yamaha recommended Yamaha synthetic or Hetman. Al Cass evaporates very quickly, Hetman does not. I use it on my Schilke pic which really gets played only a few times a year and the pistons do not freeze on me. |
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MusicByThePound Regular Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2017 Posts: 24 Location: Upstate NY
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Been a happy Al Cass user forever.
Two weeks ago I tried Hetman synthetics for the first time ever to see if they would help with a sluggish valve on an older horn. What I ended up doing was using a couple dabs of #5 then a regular dose of #1. All good so far.
I had heard never to mix synthetic with regular oil. However, being able to mix different thickness of synthetics seemed to be an advantage. Anyone have any "recipes" to share? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:21 am Post subject: |
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MusicByThePound wrote: | Been a happy Al Cass user forever.
Two weeks ago I tried Hetman synthetics for the first time ever to see if they would help with a sluggish valve on an older horn. ... |
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Were the valves sluggish with Al Cass?
If not, how did they respond when using Al Cass?
I use a heavy petroleum oil on valves (which makes them sluggish), and then add 1 or 2 drops of Cass (which is also petroleum) to give good action. That combo works good for me.
My heavy oil is drug store pharmaceutical grade Mineral Oil (cheap and easily available, no smell, no stains).
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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MusicByThePound Regular Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2017 Posts: 24 Location: Upstate NY
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Its the 2nd valve - can work fine for weeks then starts sticking down - sometimes cleaning helps, sometimes makes it worse - probably a slightly bent casing from a drop.
Years ago someone showed me about using Lithium grease cut with Al Cass on another old horn with a sticky valve (also helps seal leaky valves). I was looking at trying this again and got the idea to try the different Hetman's instead. Same idea as your mineral oil/AC recipe. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I use straight Mineral Oil on the slides (instead of grease). It gives good action, and doesn't produce the 'sticky goo' in the tubing. I also use straight MO in the loose valves of a very old Euph (played for social Tuba Christmas events). MO is also a decent general purpose household oil if you want to avoid the typical 'oil' smell or stains.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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