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zaferis
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Location: Beavercreek, OH
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 Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:00 am Post subject: |
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NOPE, buy neither.. don't waste your money..
If he's been playing for a year, what's he been playing on?
RENT! Find a rental program, probably one through his school, band director. and rent one..
You will get a better instrument, by far, will have a repair element included, and most likely an upgrade option down the road. Additionally, if he quits, you're not stuck with a crappy trumpet that has no resale value...
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tptptp
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Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 1410
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:09 am Post subject: |
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PDX, you’re being very kind to want to provide your nephew with this great gift. I have never seen either of the brands you’re considering.
I would just like to add that I very recently bought my grandson (10 years old) a used Yamaha student horn that I found at my local music store in wonderful shape. Although it’s not new, it really looks new. He is completely thrilled with how shiny and nice it is and the fact that his grandfather researched and bought it for him. It plays fine and will hold up.
I think your nephew might be similarly thrilled. Put out some feelers with your local music stores and see what they can come up with. The one I bought cost $250. Good luck!
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oxleyk
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Only buy an Allora if it has "Made in Germany" on it. These were made by B&S and are very good instruments. The one in the OP is NOT one of these.
My suggestion is to contact Trent at Austin Custom Brass and see what used instruments he has in stock but you will need to spend more than $250. I paid $750 for my Allora, solely on Trent's recommendation.
Happy hunting! |
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Claude1949
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Joined: 14 Aug 2018
Posts: 188
Location: maryland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| oxleyk wrote: | Only buy an Allora if it has "Made in Germany" on it. These were made by B&S and are very good instruments. The one in the OP is NOT one of these.
My suggestion is to contact Trent at Austin Custom Brass and see what used instruments he has in stock but you will need to spend more than $250. I paid $750 for my Allora, solely on Trent's recommendation.
Happy hunting! |
YES! I recommend Trent and have bought a few great (inexpensive) horns from him that I still have & use although I own about 30 of them........incidentally, I bought an almost, if not MINT Olds, Elkhart, IND, USA on ebay for $200 & it is a VERY good trumpet and looks new!
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Dennis78
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Joined: 28 Feb 2015
Posts: 673
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Maybe they only ship the good Chinese horns to Cincinnati! I’ve bought two Cecilios which I still play and are now more than 10 years old with no problems
Bought a $99 mendini for my small children to bang around on-it’s almost 6 years old and still very functional
The local schools are flooded with them and a local music store rents them
Who cares about resale?
New is new and nothing feels like new
Whatever you get just be sure to keep up on maintenance
Even my main cornet is a China made horn. Is it tops ? Absolutely not. Is it good? Definitely yes
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3318
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:15 am Post subject: |
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The issue of 'what trumpet is he using now' is actually quite important.
Even if it's a high-mileage school owned horn, it might sound and play better than a new inexpensive one. So the new horn might actually be a setback. And YES, all the advertising literature claims how wonderful the new horns are - 'perfect intonation', 'professional sound', yadda yadda!
Another consideration is the 'pride of ownership' issue. People that age can be very sensitive and aware about the 'status' of such things. The brands you mention will always have the stigma of being a 'beginner instrument'. Even if the horn happens to play superbly, it will never be viewed as anything else. This can be especially true if other players in the school band do have more expensive big-name instruments.
Is there some other hobby or long-term interest that a gift might suit - e.g. a bicycle work stand and toolkit, a drill press, etc.
One of my cherished childhood memories is when my father and I went for long car ride and just talked for a few hours, and we had a 'serious meal' at an adult steak house.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
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grune
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Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:31 am Post subject: |
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to the OP: well, you asked for opinions, so here goes!...
I would buy neither. Better to save and get something decent than to buy junk that will impede ability. You want to turn the fellow onto music and trumpet, not off. A poor instrument leads to frustration.
Peer pressure can be a terrible thing. Are all the other kids playing brand new horns? If not, the rental idea has many advantages for 2nd year. At the end, you will better know if your guy has talent, and perhaps you can save for a decent horn.
You are welcome to PM me.
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Dennis78
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Joined: 28 Feb 2015
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Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | The issue of 'what trumpet is he using now' is actually quite important.
Even if it's a high-mileage school owned horn, it might sound and play better than a new inexpensive one. So the new horn might actually be a setback. And YES, all the advertising literature claims how wonderful the new horns are - 'perfect intonation', 'professional sound', yadda yadda!
Another consideration is the 'pride of ownership' issue. People that age can be very sensitive and aware about the 'status' of such things. The brands you mention will always have the stigma of being a 'beginner instrument'. Even if the horn happens to play superbly, it will never be viewed as anything else. This can be especially true if other players in the school band do have more expensive big-name instruments.
Is there some other hobby or long-term interest that a gift might suit - e.g. a bicycle work stand and toolkit, a drill press, etc.
One of my cherished childhood memories is when my father and I went for long car ride and just talked for a few hours, and we had a 'serious meal' at an adult steak house.
Jay |
This is all very true!
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:15 am Post subject: |
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I have an option and wonder if it's feasible.
How about buying a good, vintage/used horn on shopgoodwill or the like and then have it refinished? Better horn but with a new horn bling?
Kids probably don't even know that that old Olds is not a new product.
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Brassnose wrote: | | Horns are personal; maybe let the kid choose the favorite horn? A trip to Dillons or similar location is fun for everyone. |
A first year player, IMO, will have absolutely no clue as to which horn will work better for him. NO CLUE.
Brad
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pinstriper
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Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 340
Location: Portlandia, OR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| PDXbugler wrote: | | pinstriper wrote: | Honestly, the criteria of "new" and $250 are at crossed purposes with gifting him a horn worth the having.
The triple constraint applies. Change at least one criteria. Either spend more, don't get new, or don't get him a trumpet - consider a few lessons with a GOOD teacher. |
You're seriously saying that no trumpet is better than an inexpensive trumpet? As mentioned, I realize the forum is for upper echelon musicians and trumpets, but that seems haughty. I won't feel shamed for being on a strict budget and wishing to provide a gift. |
I think by other posts this morning you are seeing that my advice was neither haughty nor an attempt to shame you, but a good faith attempt at helping you get not only the best value for your money but the best outcome for your nephew. Or maybe you will lash out at the others. Whatever.
I have personally bought a Hawk flugelhorn off Amazon for under $250. But I bought that horn knowing it was a gamble and was willing for it to be a throwaway. That horn was great and I sold it to a section mate for what I paid for it, while "upgrading" to the Dillon.
I have also bought a very nice, shiny Olds Studio off CL for under $200. It is the nickle finish, which is very durable as it is polished nickle under clear lacquer - a perfect school horn finish by the way as there is no tarnish worry.
I did some shopping and haven't found the Allora for under $400. I didn't bother shopping for the JP.
My advice stands.
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| PDXbugler wrote: | | pinstriper wrote: | Honestly, the criteria of "new" and $250 are at crossed purposes with gifting him a horn worth the having.
The triple constraint applies. Change at least one criteria. Either spend more, don't get new, or don't get him a trumpet - consider a few lessons with a GOOD teacher. |
You're seriously saying that no trumpet is better than an inexpensive trumpet? As mentioned, I realize the forum is for upper echelon musicians and trumpets, but that seems haughty. I won't feel shamed for being on a strict budget and wishing to provide a gift. |
I don’t think he was saying no trumpet is better than an inexpensive one, he’s saying that assuming your nephew is currently playing a mechanically sound student instrument that your money would likely be better spent on lessons....and I totally agree. Kids like new stuff, so buy him a nice new inexpensive case or a metronome and spend the rest on lessons. A major factor in kids quitting is frustration from lack of progress (I teach beginners lessons), private lessons GREATLY increase the odds of success, and having FUN WITH MUSIC....which it’s supposed to be. And as I mentioned earlier, at least one kid I was teaching ended up renting a student instrument because his relatively new Allora became unplayable when the valves self destructed. A tech at a local music store told him there was nothing he could do to fix the problem, and the kid was pretty disappointed that his shiny silver plated horn was basically junk.
Brad
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"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I am going top chime in here with another "Neither", but not because I would rule out all cheap horns for beginners. I have seen some junk from both brands that all but guarantees a beginner would wind up quitting in frustration. However, while the worst example of student junk I ever witnessed was from the Allora "Aere" series, their "Vienna" series AATR-125 has been around for quite a while now and has a decent record (longer than the series name has been around). I have one and while it is nothing to get really excited about, it would serve as good a starter horn - so long as the kid is mature enough to take care of it because these things are not robust enough for normal childhood lack of care & cleaning. (that caveat is one of the biggest issues with getting one of these, even a decent one like the 125 for a young kid)
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PDXbugler
Regular Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2019
Posts: 54
Location: OR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Dennis78 wrote: | Maybe they only ship the good Chinese horns to Cincinnati! I’ve bought two Cecilios which I still play and are now more than 10 years old with no problems
Bought a $99 mendini for my small children to bang around on-it’s almost 6 years old and still very functional
The local schools are flooded with them and a local music store rents them
Who cares about resale?
New is new and nothing feels like new
Whatever you get just be sure to keep up on maintenance
Even my main cornet is a China made horn. Is it tops ? Absolutely not. Is it good? Definitely yes |
Thank you! |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| PDXbugler wrote: | | Dennis78 wrote: | Maybe they only ship the good Chinese horns to Cincinnati! I’ve bought two Cecilios which I still play and are now more than 10 years old with no problems
Bought a $99 mendini for my small children to bang around on-it’s almost 6 years old and still very functional
The local schools are flooded with them and a local music store rents them
Who cares about resale?
New is new and nothing feels like new
Whatever you get just be sure to keep up on maintenance
Even my main cornet is a China made horn. Is it tops ? Absolutely not. Is it good? Definitely yes |
Thank you! |
You know what? The vast majority of experienced players and some technicians here have advised against those instruments, but it sounds as if you’re focused on buying one for your nephew in spite of that.
No problem, it’s your money, but I’m not really sure why you asked the question here as it sounds like you prefer to disregard the majority of opinions.
And by the way, this has nothing whatsoever to do with any “elitist” attitudes regarding instruments, plenty of people here have mentioned that you can find much better choices for the same money.
Do whatever you choose, no offense intended, good luck.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:59 am Post subject: |
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I'm not personally familiar with either horn so I'll just make some general comments. I understand your motivation and I think it's very positive. I also think that either of these horns could be fine for a beginning student.
One poster suggested that one of the horns is silver plated and the other is nickel plated and recommended the silver plated finish. I concur with that recommendation. Silver and nickel are easily distinguishable and most kids with a preference choose silver.
It's been mentioned that potential mechanical problems are a concern. I agree. The most critical mechanical problem is a faulty valve. However, I haven't heard of consistent mechanical issues with either of these horns and, of course, you can have mechanical issues with any horn (some inherent and some player assisted).
Working with a dealer who will stand behind the horn can take a lot of the worry out of this, so choose someone reputable.
Even in a worst case scenario buying one of these horns would not be a life altering catastrophe. Sometimes we buy things that break beyond repair later. That's a risk with any purchase. In the case of a trumpet, with decent care they typically last a long time without a need for anything significant.
I started out on a garage sale cornet but when I demonstrated ability, interest and commitment my dad bought me a brand new trumpet when I went into 7th grade. It was quite a thrill to have a brand new trumpet at that age. That was 57 years ago and I still play every day. So, there's something to be said for the inspirational value of receiving a brand new trumpet when you're just starting out.
I say buy the silver one and encourage your nephew to practice on it every day.
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PDXbugler
Regular Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2019
Posts: 54
Location: OR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | I'm not personally familiar with either horn so I'll just make some general comments. I understand your motivation and I think it's very positive. I also think that either of these horns could be fine for a beginning student.
One poster suggested that one of the horns is silver plated and the other is nickel plated and recommended the silver plated finish. I concur with that recommendation. Silver and nickel are easily distinguishable and most kids with a preference choose silver.
It's been mentioned that potential mechanical problems are a concern. I agree. The most critical mechanical problem is a faulty valve. However, I haven't heard of consistent mechanical issues with either of these horns and, of course, you can have mechanical issues with any horn (some inherent and some player assisted).
Working with a dealer who will stand behind the horn can take a lot of the worry out of this, so choose someone reputable.
Even in a worst case scenario buying one of these horns would not be a life altering catastrophe. Sometimes we buy things that break beyond repair later. That's a risk with any purchase. In the case of a trumpet, with decent care they typically last a long time without a need for anything significant.
I started out on a garage sale cornet but when I demonstrated ability, interest and commitment my dad bought me a brand new trumpet when I went into 7th grade. It was quite a thrill to have a brand new trumpet at that age. That was 57 years ago and I still play every day. So, there's something to be said for the inspirational value of receiving a brand new trumpet when you're just starting out.
I say buy the silver one and encourage your nephew to practice on it every day. |
Thank you! |
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PDXbugler
Regular Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2019
Posts: 54
Location: OR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: |
You know what? The vast majority of experienced players and some technicians here have advised against those instruments, but it sounds as if you’re focused on buying one for your nephew in spite of that.
No problem, it’s your money, but I’m not really sure why you asked the question here if you’re going to disregard the majority of opinions.
And this has nothing whatsoever to do with “elitist” attitudes regarding instruments, plenty of people here have mentioned that you can find much better choices for the same money.
Do whatever you choose, no offense intended, good luck.
Brad |
I mentioned that I want the trumpet to be new and within my budget. I asked which of the two is the better choice. I appreciate alternative suggestions, but I'm grateful for answers to the question asked.
It's irrational to me when someone states they've never heard of a brand or model, but goes on to state it's garbage simply because it's made in China. Maybe they haven't checked the country that manufactured their appliances, electronics and auto parts. I understand that 9 out of 10 trumpet brands/models from China are in fact garbage, but it means 1 out of 10 are useful.
The Jean Paul TR-330N has excellent reviews and 4+ stars on every site visited.
The Allora ATR-250S is newer and replaced the Allora AATR-101 in 2017. Reviews are very limited but the few are positive. It's the model below the Vienna, parts are available, silver plated and includes a 3 year manufacturer warranty.
I'm able to purchase the Allora ATR-250S from a reputable dealer at a substantial discount, which places it within my budget. The 3 year warranty instills confidence and assures it'll continue working until he outgrows it. I'll be taking it to an experienced trumpet player to test before I gift it.
Good or bad, I'll post his comments and if it's a keeper, a follow up review after a few months, for others who may find themselves in a similar situation.
I appreciate the constructive suggestions and special kudos to TrumpetMD, Dennis78 and HERMOKIWI! |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| PDXbugler wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: |
You know what? The vast majority of experienced players and some technicians here have advised against those instruments, but it sounds as if you’re focused on buying one for your nephew in spite of that.
No problem, it’s your money, but I’m not really sure why you asked the question here if you’re going to disregard the majority of opinions.
And this has nothing whatsoever to do with “elitist” attitudes regarding instruments, plenty of people here have mentioned that you can find much better choices for the same money.
Do whatever you choose, no offense intended, good luck.
Brad |
I mentioned that I want the trumpet to be new and within my budget. I asked which of the two is the better choice. I appreciate alternative suggestions, but I'm grateful for answers to the question asked.
It's irrational to me when someone states they've never heard of a brand or model, but goes on to state it's garbage simply because it's made in China. Maybe they haven't checked the country that manufactured their appliances, electronics and auto parts. I understand that 9 out of 10 trumpet brands/models from China are in fact garbage, but it means 1 out of 10 are useful.
The Jean Paul TR-330N has excellent reviews and 4+ stars on every site visited.
The Allora ATR-250S is newer and replaced the Allora AATR-101 in 2017. Reviews are very limited but the few are positive. It's the model below the Vienna, parts are available, silver plated and includes a 3 year manufacturer warranty.
I'm able to purchase the Allora ATR-250S from a reputable dealer at a substantial discount, which places it within my budget. The 3 year warranty instills confidence and assures it'll continue working until he outgrows it. I'll be taking it to an experienced trumpet player to test before I gift it.
Good or bad, I'll post his comments and if it's a keeper, a follow up review after a few months, for others who may find themselves in a similar situation.
I appreciate the constructive suggestions and special kudos to TrumpetMD, Dennis78 and HERMOKIWI! |
Ok, then buy one of those two horns, you got some answers that support what you want to do, so you’re good to go.
FYI, I have had direct experience with a Chinese made Allora, that particular horn appeared to be in very condition but was, in fact, junk. I believe that there are Chinese made horns that are quality, but at present most of them are not, and it’s going to take some time until Chinese made instruments overcome the reputation of being terrible.
And personally, I put absolutely no stock in on line reviews, whether they are on trumpets or toothpaste. I’ve read “reviews” of trumpets that went beyond inaccurate to the point of being ridiculous.....just like a lot of what’s on the internet.
Again, just my opinion(s). Hope your nephew likes his horn, regardless of what any of us here think about those brands, it’s good of you to be doing this for him.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Dennis78
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Joined: 28 Feb 2015
Posts: 673
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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When I was a kid we rented and eventually bought an old King, I believe it was the Cleveland Superior but it’s been some time. It got me everywhere I needed to be. But it was ugly!
In about sophomore year? I got my step mom to buy me a new horn a !!SILVER!! Holton Collegiate. Man I hit big time right?
Not really but it sure felt good and made me want to practice my arse off. And I did and did ok
I could have saved up and got the Bach, Neo, Besson, SW but.........
Pretty happy with my Brasspire but........
Still try to catch that deal on THE one that I want
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