Is this Natural Trumpet easier to learn than other trumpets?

[LAZARUSBLUE]

I saw this trumpet over the internet. https://www.brassforbeginners.com/collections/instruments/products/bfb-natural-trumpet
They call it the BfB Natural Trumpet and say its good for beginners to learn... Seems like it has no valves so that players can focus just on blowing... Does this makes it easier to play for a beginner than conventional trumpets? Your feedback will be much appreciated.

[Robert P]

While going by the video it doesn't sound as hideously bad as Bb pvc trumpets, if a kid is going to learn trumpet unless someone can present a really compelling argument to the contrary, I think they should begin learning on a conventional Bb trumpet.

This seems like a novelty and it might be fun but not a genuinely useful teaching tool, that verbiage sounds like something concocted by a marketing person. I would say explore this after gaining some proficiency on a conventional trumpet.
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[JoseLindE4]

I'm not sure about the natural trumpet, but a baroque trumpet as inexpensive as their other horn is intriguing.

[trumpetmike]

[Andy Del]

The real question needs to be ‘what problem does this piece of plastic solve?’

To me, it has no real need to be, s there is no problem solved. It would actually make things less appealing to kids as they can’t play any melodic material and would be limited to only 3 or 4 notes when they could play an activate and a lots of melodies in the same time frame.

Like a P-trumpet, a waste of time. And money.

Cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[trumpetmike]

[cgaiii]

Addressing the OP's original question of "Is this natural trumpet easier to play than other natural trumpets?"
I have not tried one of these, but looking at it:
1. It uses a modern mouthpiece. That might make it a little easier to play than one using a historic replica mouthpiece. The question is, what are you trying to achieve. Do you want to learn to play a natural trumpet? Or do you want to do exercises to improve your modern trumpet playin? If you want to learn the natural trumpet and play historical music, this is probably not what you are looking for. Even the video clearly positions it as a teaching tool for young trumpet players to give them a greater appreciation for how the trumpet works. If you want it for that purpose, it might be of some use.
2. It has no tuning slide. This renders it pretty difficult to play with other instruments. The website fails to mention what key it is in, only saying that it is pitched for modern pitches (A=440). Is it in D, C or what? Basically this looks like a long bugle, so some fundamental lower than a Bb or G bugle.
3. The demo is by someone who can play natural trumpet to a certain extent. However, the multipart fanfare is played all by the same guy. Since there is no tuning slide, four different people might sound off pitch to each other.
4. I certainly do not think this would be very helpful for learning natural trumpet as a performing instrument. But if you wanted to fool around with the natural harmonic series to see how it relates to modern trumpet playing, you could use this, or a piece of hose of the right length with a funnel stuck in the end and your Bb mouthpiece stuck in the other end.
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Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

[starkadder]

Why not just hand out vuvuzelas?

[BfB]

Hello Lazarus Blue et al,
Chris here, from Brass for Beginners (the guy in the video). We just joined trumpet herald and got around to posting something on our vented horn, the BfB Baroque™, which you can view here: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1567811#1567811

As far as this thread goes, there are a lot of good issues brought up here, so I will try to answer them more or less in order:

1. The question, "Is this Natural Trumpet easier to learn than other trumpets?" doesn't quite get to the point of how or why one might choose to use the instrument as a beginners' teaching tool. The question, ‘what problem does this piece of plastic solve?’ is more to the point. It isn't really a question of being easier or harder, but a question of the pedagogical priorities in the beginning stages of development. Put most simply, the use of the natural trumpet limits the variables, helping students focus on the development of critical fundamentals and aural skills before they get a modern brass instrument. The lower to middle partials of the natural trumpet, which are easily accessible for beginners, puts the focus on hearing and reproducing pitches and intervals that are inherent to all modern brass instruments.
The perennial problem that band director’s face is that brass students associate notes on the staff with a valve combination or slide position. By learning the harmonic series, students will develop a connection between audiation and lip-blown pitch vibration, rather than to rely on valves or slides to find the notes. To learn about the philosophy behind the use of the natural trumpet, visit: https://www.brassforbeginners.com/pages/the-natural-trumpet
Some might ask why not use a bugle (or a vuvuzela for that matter), but a bugle is half the length of a natural trumpet pitched in the same key, putting the harmonic series for the most part out of reach for a beginner, and a hosaphone, while instructive about how the harmonic series works, unfortunately cannot be made to play the lower partials in tune, which are the ones that are needed for beginners. For more information on why the trumpet is a compelling teaching tool, check links on this page: https://www.brassforbeginners.com/pages/beginning-brass

2. Our trumpet was designed with the help of top music acousticians, to sound and feel like an authentic replica, while putting the lower partials even more in tune than most. It doesn’t have a tuning slide because it is a classroom instrument, and in a classroom with lots of children, anything that can move, will move. Again, the lack of any moving parts helps to keep the focus on developing critical skills.

3. Just for the record:! I am a not a marketing person. I am a teacher, 20 years at the Music Institute of Chicago, and professional musician, having played in orchestras in the US, South America, China, Singapore, and Japan. Studied with Vincent Cichowicz and played in Civic Orchestra of Chicago, having seen the late Adolph Herseth for coachings on a weekly basis. Not saying this to “blow my own trumpet,” but to say that this program was not developed by marketing people.

4. Robert P: If you have beginning level or intermediate valve trumpet student, this horn is a great addition to their lessons, or even home practice. It helps them to refine sense of pitch and develop the ear. Also, it is a great way to get them thinking about how the instrument was used historically, and how it relates to what they play on the modern trumpet.

5. Trumpetmike: This program is not about teaching students how to play a natural trumpet, it is about teaching them the fundamentals of brass playing, using the natural trumpet as the teaching tool. Very curious who gave you one of our trumpets? John Wallace? Have you taught in a group class with this? If you have a group of 30 kids, it is unlikely that all of them will be on the same pitch, but you have missed one of the best parts of using this instrument in group lessons, which is that all intervals in the lower to middle register are consonant. This means that students can play a “wrong note” and be successful while they develop their pitch awareness and refine lip-vibration. We have many programs running in the US and UK, and so far the feedback has been extremely positive.

6. If someone tells you that our natural trumpet is only slightly better than a hosepipe, they have not actually compared it. Our horn is, however, slightly better than some historic replicas in terms of how the harmonic series sits in the lower register.

7. Andy Dell: Good question about the melodic material. There is a whole other element to this program that puts students in touch with the origins and meaning of music itself. Although you will really need to get a hold of the student book to see what actual “music” is included, you can hear it all played by people like Brian Shaw, Crispian Steele-Perkins, Gabriele Cassone, and Terry Everson, to name a few, on the student resources pages at http://www.bfbresources.com/
There is a story that tells the history of lip-blown instruments and explains important aspects of learning music, narrated by Karl Davies (a GOT actor) which you can hear here: http://www.bfbresources.com/hear-ragnars-amazing-sounds/
This program inspired students’ creativity in ways that learning Hot Cross Buns cannot. Find out about the book here:https://www.brassforbeginners.com/collections/curriculum/products/around-the-world-in-twenty-one-trumpets-student-edition
About interdisciplinary methodology here: https://www.brassforbeginners.com/pages/what_is_bfb

8.Trumpet mike: would be interested to hear about the “problems this horn creates”

9. Cgaiii: Thanks for the thoughtful points!
1. I can see why the video could be confusing- it was meant just to show that the horn sounds and plays like a “real” natural trumpet, but its use for beginners is really for the lower partials. That being said, we have sold lots of these horns to high school and college programs that want students to have a chance play some 19th century trumpet ensemble repertoire, to challenge their ears and introduce them to early music. Even with the lack of a tuning slide, you can get the pitch very close to 440 with a modern mouthpiece. You will find that the Nat is quite a bit more flexible pitch-wise than the modern trumpet. If you want a low-cost, fully tunable Nat that can be played with vents, check out our BfB Baroque™: https://www.brassforbeginners.com/collections/instruments/products/bfb-baroque-1
2. Re: what key does it play in: OMG! How did we miss that!! It plays in C, allowing you to use it with other classroom instruments like recorder or Orf. We even have people using it with Kid’s Rock and Mariachi backtracks. Just added to the website- thanks for that!!!
3. You might be surprised how well this trumpet works as a Nat for intermediate to advanced players, but again, we do have a vented horn to take that next step. As I said earlier, the hosaphone is not a solution. I wish it were- it all would have been so much easier!

Thanks for all the insights!

Chris at BfB
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Chris @ BfB

[boog]

Since it is stated that this trumpet (bugle) is pitched in the key of "C", where is the fundamental? i.e. is the 2nd harmonic "C" (an octave above "pedal" C) on the 2nd space in bass clef? This would give you a usable diatonic scale starting on 2nd line "G" in the treble clef (except for a terribly sharp second space "A", and no "B" natural).

A more-or-less "true" diatonic C scale would be available on third space C and up, with some of the notes having to be "lipped" into tune to fit modern (or, practically, keyboard) intonation, mainly above G on top of the staff.

The "C" tuning of this instrument would probably render it fairly useless for use as a natural "Baroque" trumpet, which most, if I am not mistaken, were pitched lower (and were, of course, longer), giving you more usable notes in an orchestral setting. My college trumpet professor was a collector of these old instruments, and unfortunately, that has been too many years ago...

The instrument LOOKS like it might be double wrapped (twice as much pipe as a normal "C" trumpet), which would pitch it basically as a "C" trombone would be, (but with a trumpet mouthpiece). This would pitch it an octave lower than the open notes on a normal C trumpet, of course.

Some of you Baroque brass aficionados might be able to shed some light on this.

[BfB]

Hello boog,

The instrument we are discussing is a natural trumpet in C, not a bugle. That means it is 8ft as apposed to 4ft. The fundamental is 2 octaves below middle C. Check this link to learn more:https://www.brassforbeginners.com/pages/the-natural-trumpet
And more about the instrument:
https://www.brassforbeginners.com/pages/bfb-natural-trumpet

There is no shortage of literature available on this topic, but C is also a standard key for Baroque repertoire, which is often played at A=415. This instrument is modern pitch though (A=440) so that it can be played with other modern classroom instruments, like recorders and Orf.

If you are interested in playing an instrument designed for more advanced trumpeters, check out our BfB Baroque: https://www.brassforbeginners.com/pages/bfb-baroque

If you are interested in

Hope that helps!
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Chris @ BfB

[boog]

Yes, Chris, you answered my inquiry. Thank you!

The design of the brass model is interesting. Unfortunately, in this stage of my life, I have too many trumpets. including home-made natural trumpets built out of "boneyard" horns! :D

Best of luck in your endeavor!

Dave

[Crazy Finn]

[kehaulani]

Perhaps I missed it, but what is going to be the reaction of parents who have bought one of these for their kid and then the teacher turns around and tells the parent that he must now purchase a conventional trumpet?
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[Robert P]

[BfB]

[BfB]

kehaulani wrote:

Perhaps I missed it, but what is going to be the reaction of parents who have bought one of these for their kid and then the teacher turns around and tells the parent that he must now purchase a conventional trumpet?

Although we do get individual orders from parents wanting to start their child with the program at home (obviously brass playing parents), or from brass instructors who start students in a private setting, this instrument is really designed as a general music classroom instrument. Schools purchase a classroom set which they keep at school and rotate to the entire grade level year after year. The instrument has no moving parts and was designed to be extremely robust, which means the investment means years of brass education for an entire grade level.
https://www.brassforbeginners.com/collections/teacher-packages/products/full-classroom-set

Thanks for your thoughts.
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Chris @ BfB

[BfB]

[BfB]

If you are interested in learning how the Brass for Beginners programs works— try out the BfB Natural Trumpet™ and get a tour of the curriculum and teacher resources— please come to the ITG conference in Miami where we will be presenting the session "A Brass Odyssey: Using the Natural Trumpet and the History of Lip-blown Instruments to Teach Beginners"
Saturday 11:00am, 1st floor, Orchid Ballroom
https://www.itgconference.org/2019-schedule/

We will also host a booth in the exhibition hall where you can try out our vented instrument, the BfB Baroque™
https://www.brassforbeginners.com/collections/instruments/products/bfb-baroque-1

Thanks for all the comments!
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Chris @ BfB

[kehaulani]

Unless I missed it, you still haven't addressed the issue of parents being confronted later with having to still buy another instrument, the conventional trumpet. If I were that parent, I would be pretty miffed.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn