I'm playing the horn, but the horn is also playing me!

[LaggsZ]

OK, as a rule, I only ask weird (or dumb) questions. I'm not proud of it, but here goes. Having played jazz saxophone, and more recently trumpet, I have noticed that my solos are built differently on the respective instruments -- though differences are often subtle. Somehow certain musical lines or phrases just seem better on the trumpet, even all notes in the same range as the sax (and vice-versa). Until I played the trumpet, I thought my sax solos were built on theory combined with stuff in my head, combined with the mechanics of (and my proficiency on) the horn. Within these parameters, I thought the horn was just a vehicle. Now I realize the horn is more than a vehicle, and it influences the music above-and-beyond it's range, mechanics, etc. Maybe it's obvious to those of you who switch between trumpet, flugelhorn and cornet. Maybe those inspire different musical lines and ideas. Perhaps switching between two very different horns (trumpet and sax) makes this more striking for me.. My only question is whether this makes any sense. And... How does the horn change your concept and notes you play in solos? Is that something that can be described? (If this question seems too stupid, forgive me.)

[Richard III]

Part of this will sound like a joke. Perhaps it might be just a little bit. Sax has lots of keys and quite the easy time doing runs up and down. We say this in my section all the time, "Look at how easy the reeds have it. They just run up and down using all their fingers." Trumpet requires more imput from your wind and embouchure so the effort is greater. So, time for you to learn what work really is (joke part). Okay, maybe all is joking, but really the mechanics are quite different so the process is quite different. You'll get there with lots of practice.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[Turkle]

I have some thoughts about this.

There is definitely a "trumpety" way to approach a solo, as there is a "sax" way to approach it, and a "pianistic" way, etc. I think that the different instruments have different timbres, they have different physical requirements, they have different intonation quirks, they may cut through or blend with a loud band differently, they handle large intervals differently (a two octave jump is way easier on a piano than a trumpet!), among many other differences.

And further, each instrument has a history of players that have developed the musical language of that horn. So when you play trumpet, you necessarily are using Louis, Miles, Dizzy, etc. And when you play sax, you are using Hawkins, Coltrane, etc. So much of what we study and think of as the sound of an instrument has to do with the history and ideas of the great players of that particular horn.

Does this mean that you're locked in to one approach? Absolutely not! This just means that certain instruments - due to their unique sound, physical playing demands, and musical history - lend themselves to a certain melodic approach, timefeel, and musical vocabulary.

Let me illustrate this with two examples.

Art Blakey is such a wonderful drummer, and one of the things he does so well is changing his cymbal sound to accommodate different instruments. Listen when the trumpet player gets up to solo - he changes the timbre of his cymbals to allow the trumpet player room to blow without having to challenge the drums so much. He also provides rhythmic space and comps in a simpler manner. This is because the trumpet lends itself to playing "inside" the rhythm. Now listen when the sax starts soloing. Blakey now can use a much fuller cymbal sound and comp more aggressively. This is because saxes can blow against a louder band and still cut through without killing themselves. Also, they tend to play with a freer timefeel. So that sort of aggressive drumming is way better behind a sax. Blakey adjusts his sound and the business of his comping to accommodate the unique requirements of those two instruments. (Tony Williams was also superb at this.)

A second example. I sometimes sit in with a friend's trio. He is an extremely aggressive drummer with a very free feel. It's a loud band. Basically, you'll start with the changes, but quite quickly, all the crazy polyrhythms start and it's mayhem. They are awesome but it's very loud! Now, I can't play "like a trumpet" over that. There's no way to just play "inside" the rhythm. Instead, when I play with them, I consciously try to play "like a sax." What does that mean? I play with a freer timefeel and just sort of "float" freely over the thunder below. It's a type of situation that the sax is I think traditionally more equipped to handle, and so when I solo in that type of situation I specifically try to adapt my improv approach to be more "sax."

I think there are all kinds of examples of musicians specifically adopting the sound/approach of another instrument on their own. "Baby" Dodds played like a tap dancer during his drum solos. Think of all the tenor players that adapted Bird's alto sound to the lower-pitched instrument. Woody Shaw adapted Coltrane and Dolphy's concepts to the trumpet. Miles said that he had a lot of guitar in his sound, which makes perfect sense. And of course all the great horn players have copied phrasing from their favorite singers. So all of the above is to illustrate that no one is limited by their instrument - get your stuff from anywhere.

I don't know if the above is helpful or not, but these are ideas that I use in my own playing. Cheers!
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Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.

[Richard III]

I think Turkle should write a book and all the players I play with should read it. I'm serious. That was amazing. To the OP, read that over and over. Listening to the other players and adjusting your approach is apparently a hard thing to teach. I do it all the time and try to teach it. Give that players some space here. Take his lick and go with it. Okay now back off. Give and take. Those are the great moments in music and they happen too rarely.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[TrumpetMD]

[LaggsZ]

Mike, I used to think exactly like you do here. But the notes I hear in my head, and how they're strung together, seem to change depending on which horn I pick up. I can also say that I hear certain lines from piano players (within trumpet range) and I just don't think I'd play them on trumpet. Thanks to all of you for all the interesting thoughts.

[LaggsZ]

PS: Yes, I agree. Turkle's post is amazing!