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Bach....really??


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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know the etiquette on a store that sells a new bach and then you have problems.

Could you offer to call the store for kid/parents (who probably can't describe the problems anyway) and then ask them to either trade it out or do the minimal prep work to improve it? I'd imagine this might be as simple as (1) washing the valves, (2) polishing the lead slide some to improve movement and (3) using a heavy slide grease or stretching the tubing on the dump slide.

But I also don't know how shops would handle this. Would they see this as a defect? Would they charge to bring the trumpet up to new standards? Would they trade the new trumpet for another (presumably in better shape, but not necessarily).
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can accept an occasional defect slipping through, but the assertion that every Bach horn arriving at the customer (which is the only conclusion that can be taken from the statement that its not the retailer and not a prep issue) has defective slides and valves does not wash with me. I have handled too many Bach horns, seen them built and tested, looked over random grabs off the line as it were, and such a situation simply does not align with what is happening at the Bach plant, and what is delivered by other channels.

One of the defects noted is missing plating. That one jumps out as the plating is done by Andersen Silver Plating, not Conn-Selmer. Their reputation for quality work is well established and the vast majority of folks on this forum have had valves rebuilt there, never mind just body plating. This suggests to me that there is more going on between production and your first contact with the horn.

As for residue: if I had a new horn that didn't rapidly accumulate black residue in the valves, I would know that the valves were not as tight as one reasonably expects in a new horn today. The wear-in process on any new horn produces black residue in hours, and requires swabbing out the valves every couple of days at first. If not, that's what I would send back.

I have interacted with the leadership and testers at the Bach plant on multiple occasions (who indeed have seen this thread and are taking it very seriously), and I would order a Bach online sight unseen, confident of exactly what I would get - in fact I have. I have also played and recommended Yamaha for just shy of 45 years now, and feel the same about their quality.

If a particular local store gets nothing but messed up Bach's, and it is nothing they are doing, you have to wonder where they get those Bach's from or who they _____'d off in the logistics chain.
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Bogey Factory
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The black residue on the valves is a good thing in a new horn. Also, I like a tight fitting tuning slide. The other stuff would bother me a little though.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I can accept an occasional defect slipping through, but the assertion that every Bach horn arriving at the customer (which is the only conclusion that can be taken from the statement that its not the retailer and not a prep issue) has defective slides and valves does not wash with me. I have handled too many Bach horns, seen them built and tested, looked over random grabs off the line as it were, and such a situation simply does not align with what is happening at the Bach plant, and what is delivered by other channels.
......


Wow. So we are clear: I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT infer that EVERY Bach horn arriving in the hands of the customer (which is NOT the only conclusion that can be taken from my statements that it’s not a retailer/prep issue) has defective slides and / or valves. My assertion is that it’s a factory issue. If you read what I have written, I have said that I see more Bach horns with these problems than I believe to be acceptable, even given the numbers of instruments they produce. Exactly where did I say that every Bach has these issues?? I am well aware that their reputation for building what some would still say is the standard for fine trumpets is well deserved. But I absolutely do see a LOT of horns show up in the hands of kids with these problems.

Honestly, as this seems as if it might be turning into a “like Bach/hate Bach” thread, which really was not my intent, I’ll stop commenting here. I DO see what I believe to be an unacceptable number of Bach horns with the problems discussed, but I see little point in a “like/dislike Bach” debate. I have nothing whatsoever to gain from mentioning what I see as unacceptable, I would not buy a horn, Bach or otherwise with these issues, but kids DO. THAT’S what I see as the real problem here, and whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees that an unreasonable number of horns show up with these problems doesn’t change what I see and have seen for a number of years with my students.

An occasional problem? No problem, but not the percentage of Strads with these issues that I see.

Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:49 am; edited 4 times in total
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Irving
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School, missing plating can be cause by dirt or grease on the trumpet. The horns needs to be delivered to Anderson absolutely clean. I wouldn't blame Anderson for a plating problem of this type.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless I missed this in reading all the replies to the original post, it would seem to me the best approach would be to contact Conn Selmer directly and see what they have to say. We can continue to speculate why the horn has the apparent issues described, continue to comment on the positive or negative aspects of the reported conditions, or simply contact the manufacturer directly and give them the opportunity to assess the situation. We can continue to take another ride down memory lane and rehash the quality control issues Bach seemed to be having years ago. But it is apparent that Bach has taken huge strides to rectify this and from most if not all reports, has been hugely successful in doing so. So why not give them the chance to deal with this directly? I for one would be most interested in their response.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it is Bach's responsibility to stand behind their product, doesn't the first line of responsibility belong to the horn seller? If the retailer has any problems with Bach, isn't that, then, between them and Bach?

In any case, it shouldn't be overlooked that guarantee/warranty actions must be done in a timely manner.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I can accept an occasional defect slipping through, but the assertion that every Bach horn arriving at the customer (which is the only conclusion that can be taken from the statement that its not the retailer and not a prep issue) has defective slides and valves does not wash with me. I have handled too many Bach horns, seen them built and tested, looked over random grabs off the line as it were, and such a situation simply does not align with what is happening at the Bach plant, and what is delivered by other channels.

One of the defects noted is missing plating. That one jumps out as the plating is done by Andersen Silver Plating, not Conn-Selmer. Their reputation for quality work is well established and the vast majority of folks on this forum have had valves rebuilt there, never mind just body plating. This suggests to me that there is more going on between production and your first contact with the horn.

As for residue: if I had a new horn that didn't rapidly accumulate black residue in the valves, I would know that the valves were not as tight as one reasonably expects in a new horn today. The wear-in process on any new horn produces black residue in hours, and requires swabbing out the valves every couple of days at first. If not, that's what I would send back.

I have interacted with the leadership and testers at the Bach plant on multiple occasions (who indeed have seen this thread and are taking it very seriously), and I would order a Bach online sight unseen, confident of exactly what I would get - in fact I have. I have also played and recommended Yamaha for just shy of 45 years now, and feel the same about their quality.

If a particular local store gets nothing but messed up Bach's, and it is nothing they are doing, you have to wonder where they get those Bach's from or who they _____'d off in the logistics chain.

A couple of comments on this post. First, I highly doubt that the “vast majority of folks on this forum” have had their valves redone, let alone at Andersen. Maybe a little hyperbole to emphasize a point?

Second, thank you for sharing that personnel at Bach are following this discussion.

Finally, is it possible that the store is purchasing seconds and selling as top quality?

Something is amiss here. Based on Brad’s post history here I trust his judgement and respect his opinion. So if he says he has observed this I believe it.

I also believe OSE’s information about his firsthand experiences with the Bach factory.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
While it is Bach's responsibility to stand behind their product, doesn't the first line of responsibility belong to the horn seller? If the retailer has any problems with Bach, isn't that, then, between them and Bach?

In any case, it shouldn't be overlooked that guarantee/warranty actions must be done in a timely manner.


Your are assuming that the retailer is qualified to make that assessment in the first place. How many music retailers out there, especially those that cater to school age players, have a staff that is fully qualified to assess the quality control aspects of all the various instruments. In high school and college, I worked in well regarded music retailers that carried pro line instruments and served the local elementary, middle, and high school music students. I considered myself good at my job and yet I would not consider myself necessarily fully qualified to assess the build quality of woodwinds and strings. If a new saxophone was leaking, I was not able to fully determine this. Does this mean I was not qualified to rent and sell these instruments to students? Maybe I wouldn't be in a perfect world, but then again we don't live in one. It is my feeling that this is quite common in many retailers. Whether a Mom and Pop brick and mortar music store or a mega retailer conglomerate that shall remain nameless, these facilities may not be able to have a staff that is fully qualified in all things brass, woodwinds, strings, percussion and keyboards.

Besides, as previously mentioned, quality control should not begin at the retail level, it should end at the manufacturer's level. If you want to get to the bottom of the OP's reported issues, CALL BACH.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am talking about the legal process, not the motives and competence of those involved.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
A couple of comments on this post. First, I highly doubt that the “vast majority of folks on this forum” have had their valves redone, let alone at Andersen. Maybe a little hyperbole to emphasize a point?


You are absolutely correct - too much hyperbole (and maybe a little TM withdrawal). But of those with vintage horns, or workhorses, it is not unusual, and certainly Andersen (even if by way of others who do the precision work on the horn but still get the plating done there) carries the lions share of that valve plating work. In my experience with them, they do first rate work, and often make up for small deficiencies in the way a horn arrives - even if they say they don't. Really good people there.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know I said I was finished commenting, but I decided to see if Selmer would respond to any of this. The following is text from an online chat I just had with one of their reps:

“Yes, I understand we're working through some quality issues. The more we get feed back from the customers, the better we'll be able to address those issues.”

I don’t think I am out of line quoting him, (I’m not using his name, though his name appeared in the chat), and I did say we were discussing this on TH.

So was that just a “company line” response? I don’t think so. I also think maybe my concerns regarding their horns might be legitimate, and not just attributable to dealer prep, old stock, etc.

All in all, I take his response as very positive; hopefully, if in fact they are having more quality control issues than what might be expected, they will address and correct them.

Brad
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
While it is Bach's responsibility to stand behind their product, doesn't the first line of responsibility belong to the horn seller? If the retailer has any problems with Bach, isn't that, then, between them and Bach? ...

---------
My views -

The customer should first contact the retail seller about problems, and inquire how to get the problems resolved. Maybe the retailer can fix, maybe not. The retailer probably does not want to do an 'exchange' because that would leave them with a 'used horn with problems'. Maybe an exchange could be done if the retailer could return the problem horn to the supplier for 'full credit'.

The guarantee / warranty is directly between the retail BUYER and BACH. I doubt the retailer is legally involved.
The retailer might be in trouble if they knowingly sold defective products, but that's difficult to prove.

If the retailer has their own 'problems' with a supplier, then yes it's between those two.

Jay
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
I know I said I was finished commenting, but I decided to see if Selmer would respond to any of this. The following is text from an online chat I just had with one of their reps:

“Yes, I understand we're working through some quality issues. The more we get feed back from the customers, the better we'll be able to address those issues.”

I don’t think I am out of line quoting him, (I’m not using his name, though his name appeared in the chat), and I did say we were discussing this on TH.

So was that just a “company line” response? I don’t think so. I also think maybe my concerns regarding their horns might be legitimate, and not just attributable to dealer prep, old stock, etc.

All in all, I take his response as very positive; hopefully, if in fact they are having more quality control issues than what might be expected, they will address and correct them.

Brad


The Bach team was aware of this thread when I made contact very early this morning and I can assure you that they take your concerns very seriously. Bach is a place with a significant number of older workers who have devoted their lives to the company and their art. Many are part of multi-generational Bach families working side by side. That is who is following up on your concern.


Yes, TH is watched by Bach, but you don't see responses posted here because to them its not about social media marketing, its about the voice of the customer. As I said, your concerns are being taken as seriously as any could be - by people who take Bach and trumpets absolutely seriously.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
I know I said I was finished commenting, but I decided to see if Selmer would respond to any of this. The following is text from an online chat I just had with one of their reps:

“Yes, I understand we're working through some quality issues. The more we get feed back from the customers, the better we'll be able to address those issues.”

I don’t think I am out of line quoting him, (I’m not using his name, though his name appeared in the chat), and I did say we were discussing this on TH.

So was that just a “company line” response? I don’t think so. I also think maybe my concerns regarding their horns might be legitimate, and not just attributable to dealer prep, old stock, etc.

All in all, I take his response as very positive; hopefully, if in fact they are having more quality control issues than what might be expected, they will address and correct them.

Brad


The Bach team was aware of this thread when I made contact very early this morning and I can assure you that they take your concerns very seriously. Bach is a place with a significant number of older workers who have devoted their lives to the company and their art. Many are part of multi-generational Bach families working side by side. That is who is following up on your concern.


Yes, TH is watched by Bach, but you don't see responses posted here because to them its not about social media marketing, its about the voice of the customer. As I said, your concerns are being taken as seriously as any could be - by people who take Bach and trumpets absolutely seriously.


Very good news, thank you for posting this.

Brad
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
I know I said I was finished commenting, but I decided to see if Selmer would respond to any of this. The following is text from an online chat I just had with one of their reps:

“Yes, I understand we're working through some quality issues. The more we get feed back from the customers, the better we'll be able to address those issues.”

I don’t think I am out of line quoting him, (I’m not using his name, though his name appeared in the chat), and I did say we were discussing this on TH.

So was that just a “company line” response? I don’t think so. I also think maybe my concerns regarding their horns might be legitimate, and not just attributable to dealer prep, old stock, etc.

All in all, I take his response as very positive; hopefully, if in fact they are having more quality control issues than what might be expected, they will address and correct them.

Brad


The Bach team was aware of this thread when I made contact very early this morning and I can assure you that they take your concerns very seriously. Bach is a place with a significant number of older workers who have devoted their lives to the company and their art. Many are part of multi-generational Bach families working side by side. That is who is following up on your concern.


Yes, TH is watched by Bach, but you don't see responses posted here because to them its not about social media marketing, its about the voice of the customer. As I said, your concerns are being taken as seriously as any could be - by people who take Bach and trumpets absolutely seriously.


Very good news, thank you for posting this.

Brad


+1

I would think Bach would LOVE to fix issues such as this, and that they simply have too much riding on it not to. Easy fixes. Here's hoping that's what Brad's student experiences ...
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Granted, every company will produce a lemon on occassion. But lets start forgetting the problems of the past that Bach had in the production of the 80's and 90's - 15 to 20 years ago.


I hate to break this to you but 1980 was 39 years ago. When did we get old? Lol (My first trumpet was bought in 1978, a Bach 43 at Giardinelli's on my Dad's teacher's discount, for $350)
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So much assumption and bluster both ways on this. It is the hands on experience which counts more... so if one is seeing repeated examples of loose/tight slides, it is a manufacturing issue. The amount of slide grease on a slide is not going to make them fall out. Or be too tight (unless there is no lubricant on the slide)

I've had about 6 students get Bachs over the past couple of years. Apart from the majority selecting a 72 ball, ALL have tight tuning slides and loose 3rd dump slides, apart from a second hand axe purchased from our Navy, a 37 made in 1994 (a terrific instrument). I tweaked the new ones to keep the dump slides to stay put and showed the kids how to keep the lube on tuning slide so they don't break the trumpet moving it, but really? I should not have to do this and I wouldn't take the instrument back to the dealer, as their repair prowess is a thing of 'legend'...

These are the facts down for one teacher. Maybe others are lucky, don't care or just don't know. If Bach admit they are aware of the issue, why has it not been fixed? How HARD can it be to make sure these slides fit with the correct tolerances? Is it impossible to tell worker XYZ that the new setting are 'blah blah' for these parts? Have dealers been told about the issues and given instruction on how to do an in-house fix? Recall faulty trumpets? What about properly inspecting stock before it leaves? Can they not tell those employees that this is not acceptable?

If this is all not fixable in 1 single work day, then they have a major workforce issue. To say they have generational workers who love the company and take pride in their work is all empty noise. Fix the problem, deal with the unsold instruments out in the wild and show that Bach is serious about this by deed, not word. Just like the pre-strike faulty bell bending die (tool? shape making thingy?) this is just continuing on and on...

And people wonder why I own not a single Bach trumpet?

cheers

Andy
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy,

Seeing your username, and having read your posts over the years, I knew not to expect anything positive about Bach.

But I have to admit you have a good point. Slides with an incorrect fit are not acceptable, especially on a pro level horn. We now have evidence from two sources, both of which I trust based on their posts, that this is not an exception.

In addition, this is not a single point failure in manufacturing either. Not only have these been improperly fitted, but these easily identifiable issues were not found in the quality assurance process. Thus two employees allowed these out in the wild *or* these issues are something that Bach considers acceptable.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey - I don't stop kids buying them, and even admit when I see a good one! We do have to compare this sort of quality control with other manufacturers who insist on their product being 100% before it leaves the factory...
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