View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
freshdax Regular Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2012 Posts: 35
|
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject: Question to you Guys! (how is these ornament notes called?) |
|
|
Hi,
how would you call the trill-like technique in the high trumpet(s)?? (possibly in other voices as well) which for instance occurs at 0:20 and 0:24??
https://youtu.be/vuaXbIhqMpQ?t=20s
...also important: how would such a gesture usually written out in the score? Maybe with the grupetto sign? (I'm actually not sure if it even is a gruppetto nor if this word is common in world of jazz)
cheers,
Freshdax |
|
Back to top |
|
|
furcifer Veteran Member
Joined: 24 May 2014 Posts: 155 Location: Texas
|
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I've heard it called a "turn" or even a "gliss" in jazz circles, and like most things in jazz, neither is going to be any more accurate than calling it a "grupetto", although if you said that around real cats, they'd ask, "What does Pinocchio's old man have to do with anything?" (*rimshot*)
Such things aren't usually written out, either. Jazz is nothing if not about increasing the latitude of individual interpretation from the written notes. Playing jazz is more about listening to what has gone before us than reading written instructions. When working with inexperienced players, having them listen to "examples of" what is desired is far better than trying to meticulously write everything out. This is why "swung" eighth notes don't need to be written out as alternating 2+1 barred triplets.
It's the Lead Trumpet's prerogative, if not the jazz trumpet player's prerogative in general. I've heard entire sections do such things without any prompting on a first-read. Knowing where to put a shake or a "cha" is more of a stylistic choice, and part of what makes a lead player who he is as opposed to some other cat. Most prefer it that way, and wouldn't appreciate so much being written out for them. _________________ Stomvi S3 Big Bell -2018
Bach 180ST37 -'80
Benge CG -'78
Buescher LP 9 -1926
Getzen 896S-4 flugel -'86
Conn 18H bone -'64
Getzen M2003E Bb/G bugle
Getzen Titleist 2v soprano G -'79
King K-50 G mellophone
Henri Gautier Cornet C/Bb/A -1919 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4820
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
furcifer Veteran Member
Joined: 24 May 2014 Posts: 155 Location: Texas
|
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
trpthrld wrote: | It's called a "flip." |
Yep, there ya go, even better. - forgot that one. You lose three things when you start getting old: The first is your memory, and I can't remember what the other two are. _________________ Stomvi S3 Big Bell -2018
Bach 180ST37 -'80
Benge CG -'78
Buescher LP 9 -1926
Getzen 896S-4 flugel -'86
Conn 18H bone -'64
Getzen M2003E Bb/G bugle
Getzen Titleist 2v soprano G -'79
King K-50 G mellophone
Henri Gautier Cornet C/Bb/A -1919 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
|
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
I just finished playing trumpet 2 in the pit orchestra for a run of Catch Me If You Can, which is written in this style and has lots of flips. It's used to transition to a note that's usually down a minor third, for example, from F at the top of the staff to the D right below. The effect is that you break higher off the starting note before coming back down to land on the lower note in tempo.
If the starting note is high enough, like in the fifth partial or higher, you can flex the embouchure and raise the tongue a bit to make the note break higher before landing on the lower note. Lower than that, however, and I had to use the valves to break off the higher note so that the figure would match the shape of the pattern that the guy was playing on the trumpet 1 part. When valving, I smeared through it a bit to match the style of the trumpet 1 part.
In this book, the flip was notated with a turn symbol, a.k.a., grupetto. I've also seen it notated in jazz charts with something that looks like a handwritten line that goes up then down. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4820
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4820
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
freshdax Regular Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2012 Posts: 35
|
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
thanks to you all, sharing your wisdom!
Highly appreciated! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
freshdax Regular Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2012 Posts: 35
|
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
How is the piece called actually? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4820
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
|
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
freshdax wrote: |
How is the piece called actually? |
It's a bit confusing, because the name of the tune is also the name of the soloist it was written for: Maynard Ferguson. That's how the Stan Kenton band did it back then. I can understand how someone might see the song title and think that it's referring to the performer (which it isn't in this case). _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
|
Back to top |
|
|
freshdax Regular Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2012 Posts: 35
|
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
dstdenis wrote: | freshdax wrote: |
How is the piece called actually? |
It's a bit confusing, because the name of the tune is also the name of the soloist it was written for: Maynard Ferguson. That's how the Stan Kenton band did it back then. I can understand how someone might see the song title and think that it's referring to the performer (which it isn't in this case). |
Thank you!
Also, would you agree that you play turns/flips with glissandi/portamento/gliding at the same time? just opposed to a "classical" gruppetto? ("classical" obvisouly doesn't involve any glissando, at least as performed on piano) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
|
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
freshdax wrote: | Also, would you agree that you play turns/flips with glissandi/portamento/gliding at the same time? just opposed to a "classical" gruppetto? ("classical" obvisouly doesn't involve any glissando, at least as performed on piano) |
Yes, the flip really isn't like a classical gruppetto; it just shares the notation symbol (sometimes), I guess because it's convenient for the typesetter. I think the jazz notation, the handwritten line that goes up then back down, is a better way to notate a flip, because it kinda looks like the flip sounds.
If you are going to play a flip, forget about the classical grupetto, which is used to portray a sense of gathering yourself to reach for the next note. Flips are used to give the music energy and enthusiasm. It's a simple, rollicking, joyful, exuberant sound. Let 'er rip! _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
|
Back to top |
|
|
freshdax Regular Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2012 Posts: 35
|
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
thank you!
I'm afraid I'll never play a flip, simply as I don't play trumpet, but only piano. (at a proffessional grade). So if you got any piano regarded questions, just hand them over to me!
Also I'm a proffessional music composer/arranger as well, and you have provided some good info all through the years, as it's not always easy from a pianists/composers perspective, and I wrote quite some tracks with live trumpets. Thanks for that & Trumpets for the win! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9144 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
trpthrld wrote: | Another way to indicate it. This is the mark you get when using the Jazz font in Finale:
|
Hey, thanks, Tim. That's what I was trying to describe above but couldn't very well without the graphic.
So, do I understand from some of the writing above that, in some cases, particularly jazz, the flip and gruppetto/turn are used synonymously? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Selmer K-Modified Light Trumpet (for sale)
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|