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HBTrumpet1221 New Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2019 Posts: 4
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: Cannonball 790rl black nickel feedback |
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We are looking to purchase a trumpet for our daughter who is heading into high school. Although she is young, and after considering purchasing a used horn, we decided that new may be a good investment for her and hopefully last her through college and beyond. So went to try out a Bach Stradivarius 180S37 over the weekend and we came across the Cannonball 790. After playing on both my daughter absolutely loved the dark tone quality and feel of the Cannonball. The horn will be used in all areas of concert type band in school but her favorite is by far jazz band ( or anything pertaining to jazz).
So we would love some feedback from the trumpet world! It seems there aren’t many reviews out there on this model Cannonball and we wanted a lasting investment if we went with a new horn, especially with a price tag that is so comparable to the much liked Bach Strad. 37. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! |
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Gonzalez Veteran Member
Joined: 09 May 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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I have one! It would not be my first choice for an allround horn. I love the dark tone quality, and the horn is a fine player. My «problem» with it is that it drown when I play with others. Can’t even hear my self. It’s useless for lead playing. But as a solo horn it’s great! And the build quality is also in the top end. But my two cents for an allrounder: take the 37 _________________ Van Laar OIRAM light I
Van Laar OIRAM Ack
Bájoc mouthpieces Lead and Pops |
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HBTrumpet1221 New Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2019 Posts: 4
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Gonzalez for your input. I loved the tone of the Cannonball as well but your issues with it are something we definitely need to consider. Today her band instructor also recommended the 37, saying it was just an all around better horn for all that she will be asked to do with it. |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I think the creative instruments (black nickel, etc.) look cool, but I've never played in a band where they would be welcome. She probably needs a Bach 37/Xeno to fit it and be able to play a mix of styles. If she can play several, that's also good because there's some variation even in the same line.
If you have the financial wherewithal, you could look into a used 37 and something jazzier as a 2nd instrument. If she loves jazz she may also want a cornet or flugelhorn at some point. Just be grateful she didn't do any of the instruments that cost 10x as much |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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This looks like a new version of the Cannonball 789RL which I play, but maybe there are some significant differences as I find my 789RL to be very versatile and can blend or cut depending on how you play it. Also, very easy to hear myself in a trumpet section due to the large bell. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2330 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:49 am Post subject: |
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This is a great question, and one that doens't really have a straight forward answer.
Liking the tone and play of an instrument is good, but as has been pointed out, it's more about what the instrument does in the performance setting and ensembles. And a young maturing player doesn't have the experience to draw from to make an truly informed judgement. 37's have been the most popular and copied trumpets for a very long time - there is a reason for that: sound, blend, projection, and aspects assist in developing skills.
I suggest returning to considering a Bach, and highly recommend you look at a Bach 19037 (50th anniversary model) this is one of the few builds that I am very comfortable in blindly recommending to students. (These are essentially the 18037 built with all the old methods that made the model the gold standard). They're a little more expensive but well worth it. A great choice, that works well in all ensembles, solo situations, and will allow your daughter to grow her playing. It could very well be the only Bb trumpet she'll ever want or need.
If a few years if and when she begins to specialize, then she'll have more experience to draw from and the ability to make a more knowledgable choice for her wants/needs.
I use my 37 for nearly everything 80-90% of the time.. Professionally, I now carry a "commercial" trumpet as well for those times that I'm playing in very specific situations-based on what musicI'm playing or who I'm playing next to. But there are definitely times which that instrument does not produce the appropriate tone.
Having said all af that about Bach 37's.. for comparison and very high on my list of oustanding instruments (especially for student with an ear for jazz) is a Yamaha 8310z. A lighter weight instrument but built with some design features that make them a versitile instrument. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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F.E. Olds Nut Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2010 Posts: 343 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:01 am Post subject: |
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For all around use I would recommend a Bach 180-37 or a Yamaha 8335 over the Cannonball. While they play well and may look pretty, they don’t have the sound or presence as the Bachs or Yamahas, and may have trouble blending with a section. _________________ Del Quadro "The Mother" |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Zero direct experience here with Cannonball, but as others have said, I agree that students generally should stay with “all around” horns like Bach Stradivarius (probably a 37) and Yamaha Xeno. Plus, in the event that the OP’s daughter doesn’t continue past high school, resale on those horns is generally good.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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HBTrumpet1221 New Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2019 Posts: 4
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Thank you so much everyone taking the time to share your valuable feedback. This is the kind of information I was hoping for when I posted my question because we truly want to make the best purchase for the right reasons! I’m looking into my daughter now trying out the Yamaha 8310z, the Bach Strad. 19037 and then possibly the Bach Strad. 18037 with the reverse lead pipe. One of the things I think She enjoyed the most about the Cannonball was the reverse lead pipe so I’m curious to see if she still feels the same about it on a different trumpet. Any thoughts anyone has on trumpets having a reverse lead pipe is Welcomed Too! |
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:01 am Post subject: |
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HBTrumpet1221 wrote: | Thank you so much everyone taking the time to share your valuable feedback. This is the kind of information I was hoping for when I posted my question because we truly want to make the best purchase for the right reasons! I’m looking into my daughter now trying out the Yamaha 8310z, the Bach Strad. 19037 and then possibly the Bach Strad. 18037 with the reverse lead pipe. One of the things I think She enjoyed the most about the Cannonball was the reverse lead pipe so I’m curious to see if she still feels the same about it on a different trumpet. Any thoughts anyone has on trumpets having a reverse lead pipe is Welcomed Too! | The effects of a reverse leadpipe are probably only barely noticeable to a young player. There may be a slightly freer feel, some less resistance or quicker response, but this is liable to be due more to the fact that such a setup forces the mounting of the brace to the bell further back toward the valve block, leaving more unbraced bell out front.
If your daughter prefers the reverse leadpipe it may be just that the horn she tried with it she found more playable, and attributing it to the RL may just be what's obviously different.
But if she liked it, she may well REALLY like the Yamaha 8310Z. Try to find the newest model if you can.
NOTE: The strads are available with a reverse leadpipe too. I have one. It also has two triggers. _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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HBTrumpet1221 wrote: | Thank you so much everyone taking the time to share your valuable feedback. This is the kind of information I was hoping for when I posted my question because we truly want to make the best purchase for the right reasons! I’m looking into my daughter now trying out the Yamaha 8310z, the Bach Strad. 19037 and then possibly the Bach Strad. 18037 with the reverse lead pipe. One of the things I think She enjoyed the most about the Cannonball was the reverse lead pipe so I’m curious to see if she still feels the same about it on a different trumpet. Any thoughts anyone has on trumpets having a reverse lead pipe is Welcomed Too! |
The truth is, for the vast majority of players with experience levels similar to your daughter’s, things like reversed leadpipes probably really don’t make much difference, and even more experienced players are sometimes hard pressed to be able to discern differences. A trumpet’s playing characteristics are influenced by a number of design factors in different combinations, it can be confusing for even experienced players.
Some students might feel that they prefer a particular design nuance, and I think the student should most definitely have some input regarding the final horn choice, but I would (and have) advise a parent to be the final decision maker, basing the decision on input from a trusted local teacher and/or possibly from some of the opinions voiced by other experienced players. Which again is why sticking with “the usual suspects” like the Bach 37 or Yamaha Xeno (both of which are available with reverse leadpipes, if the student seems focused on that) is probably a safe bet. Try to think “middle of the road” and “all around” instruments. Years down the road, your daughter might decide she wants something different, or maybe not; Bach and Yamaha are most definitely used by many accomplished professional players in many musical genres.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:54 am Post subject: |
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HBTrumpet1221 wrote: | Thank you so much everyone taking the time to share your valuable feedback. This is the kind of information I was hoping for when I posted my question because we truly want to make the best purchase for the right reasons! I’m looking into my daughter now trying out the Yamaha 8310z, the Bach Strad. 19037 and then possibly the Bach Strad. 18037 with the reverse lead pipe. One of the things I think She enjoyed the most about the Cannonball was the reverse lead pipe so I’m curious to see if she still feels the same about it on a different trumpet. Any thoughts anyone has on trumpets having a reverse lead pipe is Welcomed Too! |
Its hard to go wrong with a Bach 37, especially the 190_37 that employs the early Elkhart architecture, or a Yamaha 8335 Xeno. Both are "all-around" or "generic" pro trumpets, and the common factors include tuning slide geometry and more significantly bell design. The 8335 bell is based on refining the Bach 37. 8335 response and feel is very similar to Bach 37 - unless you find a used YTR-8335RGS, which is slightly darker and has a reversed leadpipe (sad that they don't make them any more - great horns). The native tonal spectrum of either a Bach 37 or a Yamaha 8335 is what one tends to think of as "classic trumpet tone" these days (lots of core, but not at the expense of the mid and upper overtones).
The Bach LR180_37 horns use a lighter weight body with a standard weight bell. This reduces overall mass and together with the reversed construction moving the first wall disruption to within stabilization range of the first bend turbulence, reduces perceived resistance and loosens centering just a hair. It would not surprise me at all if a young student noticed a difference (though they might have trouble explaining it). I believe that inexperienced players are actually more sensitive to equipment than the skilled ones who can adapt on the fly.
The 8310Z is a different animal and less of an "all-around" in the hands of other than a skilled player. The bell traces its roots, through several modifications along the way, back to the original Yamaha "A" bell which was taken from the Schilke B series (such as B7 for instance which the first of those horns, the YTR-632/732 was closely modeled on). As such it responds easier, blows freer, and tends to be brighter relative to Bach 37 / YTR-8335. Its tonal spectrum tends toward less core and a bit more of the lower overtone series than the "classic Bach sound", making it stand out a bit in a section of Bach-a-likes. (again, absent the skills of an advanced player who can adjust - the Z series are flexible if one has the skill) _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the 8310Z: I almost hate to say it, and perhaps it should not factor into the OP’s decision, but I wonder if a less informed band director might look at the Z as a “bright lead/jazz” horn that would not fit the traditional concert band mindset? I really think the 8310Z with a “middle of the road” mouthpiece would probably be fine, but there might be some prejudice towards that horn.
Or maybe not.🤔
Hopefully not, but a Xeno or Bach 37 might be a safer bet.
My opinion is that unless a band director is paying for the kid’s horn, it’s not his decision, and many directors might not care, but I have occasionally seen other what I consider to be inaccurate opinions when it comes to kids’ horns and mouthpieces.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:56 am Post subject: |
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I agree that the 8310Z has a lead rep. A fat mp will make it blend, but rep is a problem, unfortunately. _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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When in hi school (7-12) I became 1st chair with a Cleveland Bb student horn, I actually made 3rd chair 1st trumpet all state at 14 with the same horn. I had been playing 3+ years at that time. My point being don’t be in a hurry. Your daughter if she is going to stay after the horn will explore on her own and will develop a preference for the traits she likes. If she just wants something new that’s another issue, but if you are worried her student horn is holding her back then it should b confirmed by a good player before spending the money. Almost all good players can make a student horn sing.
I used to buy a lot of expensive horns from parents of 10th graders -cheap.
Rod |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 668
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:31 pm Post subject: Curious |
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What brand and model of trumpet is your daughter playing now? _________________ Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B short shank mouthpiece
Vincent Bach 5 B short shank mouthpiece |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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While I absolutely agree that a recognized brand student horn in good mechanical condition could certainly be used through high school, there is another aspect to this. Sometimes a new instrument, especially if it’s one that the student THINKS is better than what they have, can be an incentive/reward for the student working to progress through lessons and PRACTICE.
Very few high school aged players absolutely NEED a pro level horn, but if it’s within a parent’s budget, and the kid IS practicing and taking lessons, it’s not a bad idea.
Conversely, and I have had this conversation with parents, if the student is barely making an effort I would probably keep them on the student horn for the time being.
The new horn justification criteria might be 1)practice, 2)lessons and 3)......PRACTICE!
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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HBTrumpet1221 New Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2019 Posts: 4
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Again, thank you for everyone’s responses. My daughter is currently playing a Jupiter, capital edition. We have been renting it for the past couple of years from a music store. It’s what she started on.
As far as whether she practices, she does, and without us having to ask her. And as far as lessons go, she has taken private lessons for almost as long as she has played. She has taken piano lessons for 7 years as well. Not because we make her, but because she loves learning how to play. She truly loves music, she plays for fun and it makes her happy. She didn’t ask for a new trumpet, but we knew once it was obvious she liked playing, that renting wasn’t a good long term plan. So we started out on this journey looking at used horns and she was fine with that, still is and so are we. But her father and I thought a new horn might be a good idea, a horn in great shape that will last but also has good resale value should she want to part with it down the road. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:10 am Post subject: |
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It is great to see parents supporting a child's interest in music.
The fact that a skilled player can make a poor horn sound good, should in no way diminish the fact that a better horn makes it easier for any level of player to perform and advance.
The Capital Edition Jupiters were pretty good horns as student/step-up horns go. But a professional horn will make it easier for a student to continue improving - it allows the student to focus more on technique and musicianship, and less on the mechanics of coaxing the desired sound and response from the instrument.
Horns are tools used by musicians. My great grandfather built apartment buildings (quite well and quite durably) using hand saws and a hammer. But I imagine he would have vastly preferred power tools and a nail gun - he probably would have built more and bigger buildings had he not had to work so hard to make do with the tools available. I applaud the OP for seeking to make a better tool available. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:15 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | ......
The fact that a skilled player can make a poor horn sound good, should in no way diminish the fact that a better horn makes it easier for any level of player to perform and advance.
The Capital Edition Jupiters were pretty good horns as student/step-up horns go. But a professional horn will make it easier for a student to continue improving - it allows the student to focus more on technique and musicianship, and less on the mechanics of coaxing the desired sound and response from the instrument.
..... . |
I don’t completely agree, which is NOT to say that in the case of the student in this discussion is not a great candidate for a new horn, it certainly sounds as if she is!
But again assuming that a student level horn has no mechanical problems, I don’t believe that the average student, especially at this experience level, will progress significantly quicker on a pro level horn. Most students that I work with, in my area, DO move to a professional horn (almost always a Bach 37 or Yamaha Xeno), which is great, but I’m not convinced that “a professional horn will make it easier for a student to continue improving”, at least not significantly. I still believe that many of the nuances of a better instrument will not yet be obvious to most young players.
What I tell parents is that if they want to invest in a pro horn for their student, great, but their expectations need to be that practice and lessons are the primary factors in improving.And again, it sounds as if in this case the OP’s daughter is doing that, I think a new pro horn might be a great way to reward her hard work.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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