key of BBb

[David]

OK, I give - what is the key of BBb. I know it has nothing to do with trumpets - most commonly tubas - and yes, this isn't a tuba forum - but, well, a quest for musical knowledge still makes this a legitmate question doesn't it?
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Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

[trumpetmike]

The only place I have seen this key being used is on the BBb tuba, where (I believe) it is the traditional way of saying that the instrument is of the large variety, as opposed to the euphonium.
After a good few seconds of research I found this (courtesy of Grove's Dictionary of Music & Musicians), hope this helps.

Tubas in use at the end of the 20th century included the tenor tuba in B (Fr. tuba basse, saxhorn basse; Ger. Baryton; It. flicorno basso, eufonio), a bass instrument covering much the same range as the cello; bass tubas in F and E (Fr. tuba contrebasse; Ger. Basstuba; It. flicorno basso-grave), contrabass instruments fulfilling a similar function to the double bass; and contrabass tubas in C and B (or, as makers and players would term them, ‘CC’ and ‘BB’ respectively; the latter is often shown as ‘B'’).

The tenor tuba in 9' B (with an open pedal (fundamental) of B') is often designated ‘euphonium’ when used in bands, especially in England, and ‘tenor tuba’ when used orchestrally. In English practice the euphonium is often played with vibrato; the tenor tuba is not. The instrument has the same tube length as the B baritone (an instrument of the saxhorn type), but its bore is wider. Pedal notes from B'down to E' and beyond are available; the upper range extends to b' or even higher.

The original German Bass-Tuba of 1835 was built in 12' F and instruments of this pitch were still in common use in orchestras in much of continental Europe at the end of the 20th century. The band equivalent of the F tuba is the 14' E instrument (in England formerly sometimes called ‘bombardon’), which is generally used in combination with the contrabass in 18' B. Until about the 1960s a tuba in 12' F was commonly used in English orchestras. It was replaced by an instrument in E with a full bore and four valves (‘EE’), which remained the most common orchestral tuba in England at the end of the 20th century.

The contrabass tuba in 16' C (with an open fundamental of C') became the standard orchestral type in the USA in the 1940s. At the end of the 20th century it was being increasingly used in England as an alternative to the ‘EE’ instrument, and in continental Europe as an alternative to the F instrument. The 18' tuba in B (‘double B’ or ‘BB’), with either three or four valves, is primarily a band instrument; in the USA it occurs regularly in sousaphone form. The CC instrument, though a whole tone higher than the BB, usually has as wide a bore, giving it a distinctive and satisfying timbre, while its being pitched in C facilitates fingering in the sharp keys frequently found in orchestral works.

Very large sub-bass and ‘subcontrabass’ tubas have occasionally been made, but have for the most part proved impractical. In 1851 Adolphe Sax built a saxhorn-bourdon in E and four years later an even lower one in BB. An even larger instrument, Gustave Besson’s Trombotonar, also in BB, was 3 metres tall. Other giant tubas have been built, but it is not certain which of them has the dubious distinction of being the largest tuba in the world, as one instrument might have a greater length of tubing while another might have a larger bell or a greater volume of tubing.


I do hope this doesn't mean you are venturing into the depths to double on tuba

[David]

Nope, not going to double on tuba. I was looking though a brass catalog and when I got to the lower brass I realized there is a lot I don't know much about. I was the high school & college band, but we didn't have mellophones, euphoniums, or anything we referred to as the key of BBb.

I didn't really follow the grove explanation of BBb - i.e. how does it relate to the key of C.
_________________
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

[trump_it]

BBb means that the "Middle Bb" is an octave lower than the other lower brass instruments. That's the way it's been explained to me (the short version) anyway. I'm not exactly sure why BBb Tubas are in the key of C, though.

[BullJive]

All low brass parts are written in C, as opposed to trumpet parts which are transposed. So, even though most tubas (and most other low brass instruments) are built in the key of Bb, they read in C. Tell a tuba player or baritone player to play a C and they'll play a C (first and third valves), but tell a trumpet player to play a C and he'll probably play a Bb (open).

[urbie watrous]

I play 'bone and tuba... The previous answers are pretty much on the mark -- "BBb" means a bass tuba in b-flat, two octaves below a B-flat trumpet. (A bass tuba in C is designated CC.)

The weird thing, to me, has always been that you trumpet (and french horn) guys are great at transposing, but pretty much have everything in treble clef. For 'bone players, we can read any clef, but the parts are always* in concert pitch. I guess there are different historical reasons for doing it that way.

Urb

*Well, not always. When playing alto 'bone, some players transpose, a la alto or bari sax. Myself, I play alto 'bone without transposing -- just moving the slide positions down a fourth for each given note in concert pitch. Whatever you can get your brain around.

[ This Message was edited by: urbie watrous on 2003-12-15 12:47 ]

[KevinInGeorgia]

I love the crazy way Low Brass Transposes..
They just all read in Bass Clef & learn different fingerings.

Also you can cheat on Eb Instruments & read Bass Clef as Treble Clef but add 3 sharps..

So far what I know of Low winds is:
Alto Eb Instruments: Alto Trombone, Alto Horn. Alto Clarinet. Alto Sax
Tenor Bb Instruments: Tenor Trombone & Euphonium, Bass Clarinet
Baritone Bb & F: Bass Trombone is Like a F-horn it does Both depending on the trigger.
Baritone Eb Instruments, Eb Tuba & Bari-sax
Bass BBb Instruments: Tuba, Bass Sax
Bass CC Instruments: Orchestral Tuba
Bass EEb Instrument: Bass Tuba

& the Grandaddy of them ALL :
Full Double Tuba in BBb and EEb: http://www.penn.com/~youngfj/






_________________
Kevin Myers
Alpharetta, GA
georgia_trumpeter@yahoo.com

[ This Message was edited by: KevinInGeorgia on 2003-12-15 13:59 ]

[silverstrad]

The reason that low brass players just read bass clef with no transposition and trumpet players transpose is this:

Low brass pitched in Bb (BBb tuba, tenor trombone, bass trombone (without F attachment engaged) baritone, euphonium are written with a Bb as the fundamental. Seems logical right? The fundamental pitch is written as is on the staff.

Historically, natural trumpet players never really had a "Standard" key of trumpet. Parts could be in E, D, C, F, G, A, or whatever the composer decided to throw down that day. The trumpet player was required to use a crook to vary the length of his instrument so he could play in the proper key. In order to ease the player's reading of the part, a tradition developed for all trumpet parts to be written with C as the fundamental, regardless of the sounding pitch. Because the trumpet player had no valves at the time, it was much easier to read the harmonic series in C every time, as opposed to the harmonic series in the sounding key.

Transposition for trumpet developed to make the life of the natural trumpet player easier, and simply became tradition.

Hope I've helped on that issue.

[trumpetmike]

Is this the time to introduce the British Brass Band tradition of all parts (with the exception of the bass trombone only!!) being in treble clef??
Yes, soprano cornet right through to the BBb bass! Treble clef, in various degrees of transposition, all round!!

If all you are ever going to be doing is brass banding (which in the UK is perfectly feasible) this is actually a very good idea, in theory!
When you find that your lips are failing in the high register, you move down an instrument, from maybe a cornet to an Eb tenor horn. You can read all the same notes as the same fingerings. They are all called the same thing. They all look the same. The only thing you have to do is to adjust to different pitch of the instrument you are holding.
I have played in bands where there have been guys who have (in their time) moved from cornet to soprano to flugel to euphonium to horn to Eb bass to BBb bass, no problems. If they had been forced to learn a new clef as well, this would have caused problems.

I just wanted to throw that into the mix - I'm in that sort of mood tonight - I blame a very late night for New Year and lots of Scrumpy!!