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Yamaha Xeno C trumpet ' upgrade '



 
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jicetp
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Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 835

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:46 pm    Post subject: Yamaha Xeno C trumpet ' upgrade ' Reply with quote

Hi everyone

What are the possibilities to tweak this horn ?

Heavy caps, tuning slide change...?

I feel the horn ' lacks ' resistance, and the overtones are ' weirdly ' placed ( lie C E G starting 3 interspace ascending - intervals sound misplaced....)

Any input appreciated ( gear, places, tips..)

Thanks

JiCe
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zaferis
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1709
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a Xeno? I'm sure there are all sorts of add-ons and tweeks available from various sources BUT I'm not so sure you'll get any improvements in the directions you're looking for, if any, because there are a lot of elements in play here.

My first inclination is to remind you that there are 3 parts in play: you, the mouthpiece and the trumpet.
With a C trumpet I'd first look at mouthpiece. Is this instrument significanltly different than your others? (blow, feel, slotting?) Are you using the same mouthpiece that you use on your Bb? Does the mouthpiece fit properly into the Xeno (Gap)?
Many change thoat size and backbore between Bb's and C's, if not shank length.

Then... How long have you had the C? How often do you play it-are you practicing with it enough? Do you "KNOW" the instrument? Is it way out or is it just different from your other trumpets? Have you had the Xeno checked out, is it accuratley built and properly set up? - valve alignment? Blue Printing?

I'm not asking for responses but showing you that there are many things that could be affecting these issues. If I were to guess I'd say that the "answer" is most likely a combination of several things.

||: lesssons, lessons, lessons, practice, practice, practice :||
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JoeLoeffler
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Joined: 20 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Xeno C trumpets are not really my favorites, but they do generally play decently well in tune. I assume that you already know to play the 4th space E 1&2? (And Eb 2&3) That should help things fall into a predictable spot intonation-wise. For the resistance... adding lots of mass rarely helps a C trumpet play with the sound that it is supposed to. You might try a choke in the lower leg of the main tuning slide. A small strip of .005 brass (sheets are available from the hobby shop) carefully cut so that, when curled, it would make a ring to slide into the end of the tube will do more than you think to change how the horn plays. It should give you more feedback and will probably give you a little more to “lean into”. Playing around with the thickness and length of the choke may do what you are looking for.
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dfcoleman
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Joined: 26 Apr 2015
Posts: 66
Location: Xenia, OH

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:36 am    Post subject: C trpt Reply with quote

Have someone who plays c trumpet a lot (an experienced professional) play the horn and assess it.

Assuming it passes the test, it’s probably just a matter of practice, and perhaps some small adjustments such as valve alignment or mouthpiece.

But thoughtful daily practice is the main consideration.
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dstpt
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoeLoeffler wrote:
The Xeno C trumpets are not really my favorites, but they do generally play decently well in tune. I assume that you already know to play the 4th space E 1&2? (And Eb 2&3) That should help things fall into a predictable spot intonation-wise. For the resistance... adding lots of mass rarely helps a C trumpet play with the sound that it is supposed to. You might try a choke in the lower leg of the main tuning slide. A small strip of .005 brass (sheets are available from the hobby shop) carefully cut so that, when curled, it would make a ring to slide into the end of the tube will do more than you think to change how the horn plays. It should give you more feedback and will probably give you a little more to “lean into”. Playing around with the thickness and length of the choke may do what you are looking for.

I see that a sheet of .005x4x10 from K&S is available via Amazon, but how do you go about measuring, cutting, and installing it?

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Metals-250-005x4x10-Metal/dp/B002ZSGDVU/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=.005+brass+sheet&qid=1569357991&sr=8-1

I guess you'd have to score the piece with a utility knife, break it off, bevel the edges with sandpaper or Dremel tool accessory, and roll it somewhat before inserting, but how do you take the guess work out of matching the correct length for the exact diameter of the tube, and how do you get the dimension to match exactly so that it lies flush on the inside of the diameter of the tube? Do you typically place a choke like this toward the end of the leadpipe section just before the 3rd valve casing? I had a Lawler trumpet with a complete "ring" like this that I discovered by accident while cleaning the horn. It was probably a half-inch wide. I play tested that horn with it removed and reinserted and could literally not tell a difference. It may have been for certain notes or harmonics and, in all fairness, I would have had to play those notes at various dynamic levels to ascertain its efficacy. I do have a newer C trumpet that I understand has a choke somewhere (and is probably permanently installed), and I have heard that the builder has said that this is part of the secret sauce to aid intonation and response. It plays very well in tune and does not require alternate fingerings.
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JoeLoeffler
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Joined: 20 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brass sheet that thin can easily be cut with regular scissors. Remember it is .005 inches thick! Burnish/flatten the edge that is raised up (in the shearing) down on something flat with a smooth piece of metal. (The scissors you just used will be good enough) You are looking to make a rectangle about 1/2” wide and long enough that it will wrap around and meet to make a ring as big as the inside of your tuning slide bore. (Just trim until it fits.) Curve it gently around the barrel of a pen. If you do it carefully, it will work fine. It doesn’t need to be perfect. Make the curve of the choke a larger radius than the tube and it will hold itself to the outside of the tube wall. Put the choke in your lower tuning slide leg, right out at the end.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MK Drawing also make alterante tuning slides made of alternate materials that may or may not be worth the investment
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All very interesting suggestions, but of course the most logical first step in my view and that of others is a precision valve alignment. Knowing that all manner of obstructions in the valves have been addressed BEFORE any tweaks allows you to start with a clean slate. More often than not issues you are experiencing get corrected or at the least are improved, and don't need to be addressed further. In other words, you won't be needlessly "chasing your tail" trying to fix something that could have been solved by valve alignment. Of course you can experiment to your hearts content with aftermarket components. In fact we sell quite a few of these items on our website, from Curry, Brass Sound Creation, Reeves and others, should you be interested.

I would like to add, having a dedicated C trumpet mouthpiece is a good idea. It's a widely recognized practice that C trumpets play better when a larger throat and back bore are used. I discovered this for myself when taking up C trumpet after a lifetime of Bb. The improvement in play ability was significant in every way. If this helps, we stock the full line of Bach Symphonic mouthpieces in a variety of throat sizes with a 24 backbore from the factory. Otherwise we have the capacity to alter any mouthpiece we have on hand or one of yours in one day, or while you wait in person.

My two cents. Carry on...
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