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third valve tuning slide out of alignment question



 
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject: third valve tuning slide out of alignment question Reply with quote

I just got my second Reynold's Medalist ebay horn today. It looks pretty good and plays nice..but it has a few issues...the two main ones are the main tuning slide is frozen in the closed all the way position....and the THIRD VALVE tuning slide is out of alignment. I know it's not a dirt issue because individually the tubes slide in and out well. but together...something is not lining up. Besides...I cleaned it.
My question is....is there ANYTHING I can do myself on re-aligning the slide? Or woud I cause damage by trying to manually line up the tubes by squeezing or pulling them further apart. They look straight but they can't be. so..
Any ideas before I go to the repair shop.
Also...how much is a typical repair to unfreeze a main tuning slide and how much ya think they'd charge for a third valve tuning slide realignment and how do THEY do it?

Help!!! I am obsessing again.
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dmb
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have fixed a few horns with 3rd slide problems like you have by squeezing or spreading the tubes coming out of the valve. The solder joints (especially on the older horns) are pretty strong. Sqeeze or spread the tubes little bits at a time. That is pretty much what a repair tech will do first. If that doesn't work to your satisfaction then one of the tubes may have to be removed and re-soldered properly aligned.

As for the main slide, you might try WD40. Let it soak for day and see if that helps. If not, a repair tech shouldn't charge more than $25 or so to free it up.

Enjoy that old Reynolds.
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sqeeze or spread the tubes little bits at a time. That is pretty much what a repair tech will do first.


I tried that and the tubes looked like they were perfectly aligned but I guess they weren't. Also I imagine the tubes would have to be parrallel to each other as well..and maybe I threw that off. Oh well...I will try the WD-40 for the main slide.
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KansasTrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

musicmork wrote:
Quote:
Sqeeze or spread the tubes little bits at a time. That is pretty much what a repair tech will do first.


I tried that and the tubes looked like they were perfectly aligned but I guess they weren't. Also I imagine the tubes would have to be parrallel to each other as well..and maybe I threw that off. Oh well...I will try the WD-40 for the main slide.


Hmmm... a very strong no to the WD-40. Its just not strong enough to do most stuck slides. PB Blaster is becoming a standard used product. Apply oil a few times for a few days and it should eventually come free. If you are impatient (impatience leads to poor repair), you can apply a little heat to the slide to help the oil soak down the tube. Heat can ofcourse casue laquer to burn and solders to pop if you dont know what your doing.

For that slide alignment, I dont care how good your vision is, if you dont have a pair of calipers you cants see the problem. A slight deviation throws off both ends. Slightly massage the tube one way or the other, and keep measureing the space on either end of the tube. If this doesnt square you away the next step is to apply some heat and I am not about to try to explain this online. like the first issue with heat, if you dont know what your doing, you can cause serious problems.

Good Luck
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your third slide has two braces, then you'll almost certainly need professional help to unsolder both and realign the two tubes. If there's only one brace and the misalignment is small, the you might push around a little on your own. I'd just take it to an expert, but that's me not wanting to risk increased damage over a relatively inexpensive thing to fix professionally.

Dave
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If your third slide has two braces, then you'll almost certainly need professional help to unsolder both and realign the two tubes. If there's only one brace and the misalignment is small, the you might push around a little on your own.


There is ONE brace on the slide itself and one brace on the recieving tubes.
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

musicmork wrote:

There is ONE brace on the slide itself and one brace on the recieving tubes.


The you might carefully try to move it yourself. Viewer discretion advised...

Dave
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dr-pepp
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark:

I've owned a few Medalist trumpets, but never a cornet. I have been through probably a dozen Ambassador cornets via ebay and at least half of them had stuck tuning slides. The problem on the ambassador cornet tuning slides is that unlike a trumpet tuning slide, the slide tubes have different diameters... the upper tube is a larger diameter than the lower tube. Others have talked about the bracing and other features being problems on Ambassadors, but this is the single biggest drawback I've encountered on a STUDENT horn. You can reverse the slide and it will start to go in, but it gets stubborn. The more you push, the more stuck it gets until it is jammed. I can just see a 6th grader in band tinkering with his cornet and then reversing the slide and then getting it hopelessly stuck and then playing out of tune for the rest of the year! I've never been able to free one of these, but my repair guy gets them out without having to unsolder anything.

I don't know if the Medalist cornet is the same as the Ambassador in this regard, but if so, all the home remedies I've ever tried have failed me. It is really like a square peg in a round hole, except that the peg has been forced it the hole!

I get the frequent customer discount, but for a cornet with a stuck tuning slide, a misaligned 3rd slide, and maybe a couple of dents removed, I'd probably be charged $15 or $20. That may seem like a lot on a $40 or $50 ebay cornet, but that goes with the territory.

Find a decent repair shop in your area and take in 2 or 3 horns needing some minor work (after the back to school rush) and tell them to work it in around their other work, and I'll bet you get a decent price.

My regular guy always enjoys seeing a quality vintage instrument to work on instead of the regular student horns, so I'd encourage you to seek out a local shop to help you on these types of repairs.
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dr-pepp
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops, just re-read your original post and saw your signature with the Medalists listed as trumpets, so my cornet tuning slide information doesn't apply to your trumpet.

It is very easy to pop a brace or damage the tuning slide, so I'd go easy on the tuning slide, but if you want to do some bending on the 3rd slide tubes, I've got an old parts Medalist with a decent 3rd slide, so if you damage the 3rd slide I can send you a replacement... so bend away!
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clay....Thanks for the repair tips...Oh and...also and those stop rods you sold me are great !!!
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carltrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought an old ebay cornet a while ago --- and EVERY slide was stuck, as well as the mouthpiece. The valve caps still worked, so I took those out and soaked the horn in HOT water for about 15 minutes. Then I ran a little cold water over it and the slides managed to budge. Not easily, but they all came out with some yanking. Also got the mouthpice out this way. Just thought it might be something to try.....whether or not it actually works, it's still pretty simple.
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Solar Bell
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Musicmork,

Call Dave at Eastside Music in Roseville. On Gratiot at 696.

-cw-
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Tootsall
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuck and /or misaligned slides.... a snap for a tech; a potential for disaster for the amateur. What Chuck said.
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hose
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The re-alignment of the 3rd slide is guess work, even for a tech. Sometimes he lucks out and quickly does the right adjustments and sometimes it takes a long time before he gets it right. If he is good and experienced, he has a fighting chance. There is a learned knack to it.

Depending on how corroded the stuck slides are, he can usually free them without having to completely remove the slides. After that, the horn should be given an acid bath to remove as much corrosion as possible or you will right back to stuck slides in a short time. You can try doing all this yourself if the horn is junk and /or you don't care if you damage it. It can be fun.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the stuck slide - penetrating oil. I have a friend who is a brass tech and that's what he uses. Of course the added plus is that if it does come apart in the shop while trying to get it free, he can always repair it on the spot. Try some good penetrating oil for a few days - you should be able to get some good stuff at an auto parts store.

As for the alignment of the other slide, I'd take that to a shop because even under the best circumstances, there is a chance you are going to pop a solder joint while trying to bend it back.

But, I believe that my friend uses dowels and a caliper to realign slides when they get out of whack. He inserts the dowel so that he puts even pressure on the slide as he's tryint to move it, and calipers so that he can see how far he has come and how far he needs to go...but if it was my horn, I'd take it to him rather than trying to do it myself.

Good luck with it.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

old thread - I know, but can't resist!

I have a similar situation with a student level trumpet 3rd valve slide - very stiff to operate. But 'single tube' operation seems fine.

For a slide to be easily moved with slight finger-pressure, there are 2 critical items -
1) The slide tubes, and the receiving tubes must be parallel. And of course the right size, and not bent or nicked.
2) the center-to-center distance of BOTH sets of tubing must be the same - along the entire length of the tubing.

If the tubing is not parallel, then even if the slide begins to enter the receiving tubes easily, eventually the difference in their c-t-c distance causes excess friction and the slide is more difficult to move.

If there isn't any bracing, and the 'fixed ends' of the tubing have the same c-t-c spacing, then some tiny amount of 'bending' might get the tubes into alignment. But if the 'fixed ends' are not the same, or there is bracing, then it's lot more complicated ...

The level of craftsmanship needed to build slides that move easily (and don't leak) is part of what contributes to the cost of a high-grade instrument.

Jay
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