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kramergfy
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 Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 1:03 pm Post subject: Third Slide trigger |
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I am a fan of the third slide on trigger on my Olds Recording. Its just a superior mechanism for me to adjust that slide; traditional slides just always seem finicky, and a bit awkward with the size of my hands and the way I prefer to hold the horn.
Has anyone installed a third slide trigger on other horns? I'm curious about Bachs, and what that would look like.
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Last edited by kramergfy on Sat May 23, 2020 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Piggy backing off of that, if one does add a third valve-slide trigger, what changes to the horn have you felt?
I've had a horn maker (I think it was Adams) tell me that adding that mass at that location would change the way a horn played.
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Brad361
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | Piggy backing off of that, if one does add a third valve-slide trigger, what changes to the horn have you felt?
I've had a horn maker (I think it was Adams) tell me that adding that mass at that location would change the way a horn played. |
I’ve heard the exact same thing, from sources generally considered to be VERY credible. In fact, I once had a heavier third slide ring added to a Schilke, it markedly changed how the horn played, and not in a good way. I could hardly believe it, but it was there.
Never again.
Brad
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dershem
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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I put a trigger on my old Martin Magna, and it was a very positive change.
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grune
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Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Third Slide tigger |
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| kramergfy wrote: | I am a fan of the third slide on trigger on my Olds Recording. Its just a superior mechanism for me to adjust that slide; traditional slides just always seem finicky, and a bit awkward with the size of my hands and the way I prefer to hold the horn.
Has anyone installed a third slide trigger on other horns? I'm curious about Bachs, and what that would look like. |
Mine may be the only remaining Bach with a factory-installed trigger. Mine has a distinctive sound, which nobody can explain. The trigger may be one reason.
I would not advise adding a trigger, other than factory-installed, to a valuable horn. Too risky.
If anybody here can instruct me how to upload a pic, you could see the factory install.
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Last edited by grune on Thu May 21, 2020 6:01 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Richard III
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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I've brought this up before. My York cornet has a tuning slide trigger. I think that system is vastly superior to all others. Why don't more makers use that technology?
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Vin DiBona
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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I had an Olds Recording. Didn't like the horn or the trigger.
Triggers add weight and expense to a horn and most players simply don't like them which is why they are rarely found on modern horns.
Basically put, simple is better for a vast majority of players.
R. Tomasek |
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rcox6918
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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IMHO, it all depends on the spring. For an example, my B&H 'Imperial Besson', a B-tech Sovereign, has a 3rd slide trigger which I find a hindrance because of the stiff trigger spring the previous owner had installed. Of course, all my rotaries have a thumb-activated 3rd slide trigger - those are a joy to use. 
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Vin DiBona wrote: | I had an Olds Recording. Didn't like the horn or the trigger.
Triggers add weight and expense to a horn and most players simply don't like them which is why they are rarely found on modern horns.
Basically put, simple is better for a vast majority of players.
R. Tomasek |
Or basically the vast majority of players have never played a horn with a third valve trigger and have no idea whether they like them or not.
| Brad361 wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | Piggy backing off of that, if one does add a third valve-slide trigger, what changes to the horn have you felt?
I've had a horn maker (I think it was Adams) tell me that adding that mass at that location would change the way a horn played. |
I’ve heard the exact same thing, from sources generally considered to be VERY credible. In fact, I once had a heavier third slide ring added to a Schilke, it markedly changed how the horn played, and not in a good way. I could hardly believe it, but it was there.
Never again.
Brad |
Two points, the results of adding a trigger on the third valve might vary based on the particular horn it is put on.
And it might, probably not in my opinion, make it better. After all people add mass using after market tweaks.
Also keep in mind that many of us might not be able to detect the differences this might cause.
One thing a trigger adds that something like a heavy slide ring doesn’t is tension. A strong spring can add tension when in the home position. Any spring might cause tension when extended.
Remember when James Becker explained the tension on the spit valve bolt made a difference? |
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Third Slide tigger |
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| grune wrote: | | kramergfy wrote: | I am a fan of the third slide on trigger on my Olds Recording. Its just a superior mechanism for me to adjust that slide; traditional slides just always seem finicky, and a bit awkward with the size of my hands and the way I prefer to hold the horn.
Has anyone installed a third slide trigger on other horns? I'm curious about Bachs, and what that would look like. |
Mine may be the only remaining Bach with factory-installed trigger. Mine has a distinctive sound, which nobody can explain. The trigger may be one reason.
I would not advise adding a trigger, other than factory-installed, to a valuable horn. Too risky.
If anybody here can instruct me how to upload a pic, you could see the factory install. |
Grune,
I assume you mean third valve trigger since I have two horns with factory installed triggers on the first valve. |
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Rapier232
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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It’s always puzzled me that most modern, top of the range, cornets have triggers on 1st and 3rd, but trumpets don’t. I use the triggers whenever I need to, but never use the 3rd slide on my trumpets. I just can’t work them fast enough. I can’t find a way to hold them that works.
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | Piggy backing off of that, if one does add a third valve-slide trigger, what changes to the horn have you felt?
I've had a horn maker (I think it was Adams) tell me that adding that mass at that location would change the way a horn played. |
I’ve heard the exact same thing, from sources generally considered to be VERY credible. In fact, I once had a heavier third slide ring added to a Schilke, it markedly changed how the horn played, and not in a good way. I could hardly believe it, but it was there.
Never again.
Brad |
Byron Autrey did some work on the impact of mass placement on first and third (Kanstul Destino and X-model harmonic balancers being 2 examples). He claimed that he had first realized the impact of such when he added a trigger to a horn and added considerable focus (which implies also narrowed the tonal spectrum). A lot of customers for those Kanstul horns exploited Kanstul's willingness to sell 2 sets of slides, one with, one without.
After Byron died, I saw a cheap 1880s bohemian cornet with a refrigerator magnet bonded to the valve slide in his basement - must have been a way of over dramatizing the concept.
I also know a boutique maker who wanted to add a first trigger to a horn for their showroom, and Byron basically told them not to as it would ruin the particular qualities their designs are known for.
Personally, I have never cared for the third trigger - just because my brain is trained 180 degrees the other way for a throw. I also think it becomes more of a switch while the throw feels infinitely variable (yes, I know, thats a matter of coordination) I also find the distance of travel too limited with most 3rd triggers.
FYI: The Bach factory trigger kits are basically the same as the Olds. Unfortunately, complete kits are no longer available as parts.
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www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
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1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the info; this is why I love this community. I never considered the mass aspect of adding the trigger and how it can change the horn. Any time to hear about Byron Autrey and his experiments is time well spent. I suppose in the end we must consider that for me personally, the lesser evil might just be a small change in the horn versus a constant “miss” of low Ds and C#s!
I also don’t like that in order to get the proper leverage to easily throw the third slide I find I have to use the pinky hook on my right hand, otherwise there’s no resistance to push against with my left hand ring finger. I wish I didn’t have to do this. Perhaps it’s a simple matter of having the 3rd slide loosened up/refitted for an easier throw.
Maybe the affect of the added mass of the third trigger on the Recording is a main factor in that particular design to play incredibly focused? By chance? Seems like horns of a similar make up are much less “brilliant” when pushed. *shrug*
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dr-pepp
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Location: Austin TX
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:21 am Post subject: |
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A third slide trigger that is very similar (perhaps identical) to the one on the Olds Recording has been an option on Bach Strads for many years. I've seen several Strads over the years that included what I'd assume was a factory installed trigger.
There was one on ebay that ended a few days ago:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/bach-stradivarius-trumpet-37-/143598004637?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=FRvBz8pzKnTL2TxsACMJLPw0k2U%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc
Although Vincent Bach was an innovator in countless ways, I think there was an aspect of his personality that was a bit stubborn which became institutionalized in the modern Bach Strad. As examples of this: 1) the lack of a water key on the 3rd valve slide and instead, the "destined to get stuck" dump slide; 2) the distinctive but prone to problem stop rod mechanism on the 3rd slide, and 3) the fixed (one size fits all based on the location) finger ring on the 3rd slide.
There is an option to get a waterkey on the 3rd slide as well as a trigger on the 3rd slide, but most Strads come in a "one size fits all" configuration.
This is intended as only very mild criticism... I've played Bachs for years and with every horn there are compromises. If the horn as a good sound, good intonation and good valves, I just try and adjust to the ergonomics.
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Andy Del
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:47 am Post subject: |
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The only instruments with 3rd valve triggers I own are all rotaries, however. I had triggers added to two of them:
Alexander rotary flugel that used a Getzen 1s valve trigger extensively modified.
Alexander D trumpet using a Bach rotary trigger.
Both of these have what I can only think of as mild tension triggers. They are really easy to use.
BUT, one of the stock installs is on a trumpet which I feel is a little on the brighter and tighter side, as well as having 2 springs and is VERY resistant to moving due to spring tension. This thread has me thinking I'm going to lessen the tension tomorrow for giggles to see what happens...
If anything, I pop another post up!
FWIW, I suspect the reason for all the cornets with triggers on 1 & 3 is simply Copying the B&H trend in a cool-aide manner. These B&H are spectacularly useless in their first iteration! The second version was designed for gorilla hands.
cheers
Andy
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| dr-pepp wrote: | A third slide trigger that is very similar (perhaps identical) to the one on the Olds Recording has been an option on Bach Strads for many years. I've seen several Strads over the years that included what I'd assume was a factory installed trigger.
There was one on ebay that ended a few days ago:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/bach-stradivarius-trumpet-37-/143598004637?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=FRvBz8pzKnTL2TxsACMJLPw0k2U%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc
Although Vincent Bach was an innovator in countless ways, I think there was an aspect of his personality that was a bit stubborn which became institutionalized in the modern Bach Strad. As examples of this: 1) the lack of a water key on the 3rd valve slide and instead, the "destined to get stuck" dump slide; 2) the distinctive but prone to problem stop rod mechanism on the 3rd slide, and 3) the fixed (one size fits all based on the location) finger ring on the 3rd slide.
There is an option to get a waterkey on the 3rd slide as well as a trigger on the 3rd slide, but most Strads come in a "one size fits all" configuration.
This is intended as only very mild criticism... I've played Bachs for years and with every horn there are compromises. If the horn as a good sound, good intonation and good valves, I just try and adjust to the ergonomics. |
Thank you, this was exactly what I was hoping for. I have an Early Elkhart (40xxx) that is in okay original shape but I'm going to have it blueprinted, and now I'm also considering having one of those triggers installed. Yes, I realize this can be a change in the way the horn plays, but I simply don't like the slide throw mechanism, especially on a horn that I consider to be a workhose that I would bring to any playing situation. And I have no qualms in altering this trumpet despite it's vintage.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| dr-pepp wrote: | A third slide trigger that is very similar (perhaps identical) to the one on the Olds Recording has been an option on Bach Strads for many years. I've seen several Strads over the years that included what I'd assume was a factory installed trigger.
There was one on ebay that ended a few days ago:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/bach-stradivarius-trumpet-37-/143598004637?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=FRvBz8pzKnTL2TxsACMJLPw0k2U%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc
Although Vincent Bach was an innovator in countless ways, I think there was an aspect of his personality that was a bit stubborn which became institutionalized in the modern Bach Strad. As examples of this: 1) the lack of a water key on the 3rd valve slide and instead, the "destined to get stuck" dump slide; 2) the distinctive but prone to problem stop rod mechanism on the 3rd slide, and 3) the fixed (one size fits all based on the location) finger ring on the 3rd slide.
There is an option to get a waterkey on the 3rd slide as well as a trigger on the 3rd slide, but most Strads come in a "one size fits all" configuration.
This is intended as only very mild criticism... I've played Bachs for years and with every horn there are compromises. If the horn as a good sound, good intonation and good valves, I just try and adjust to the ergonomics. |
As in so many things, context is key. Yes, the Bach and Olds triggers are pretty much interchangeable. Dropping back a generation, the dump slide, fixed third throw ring, 25 leadpipe taper and tuning slide geometry are the same as the Holton horns Bach actually performed on prior to building his own.
What is "better", well that depends on firstly upon the system as a whole, and very significantly secondarily upon the person playing,
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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popfly38
New Member
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Posts: 5
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Third Slide tigger |
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| grune wrote: | | kramergfy wrote: | I am a fan of the third slide on trigger on my Olds Recording. Its just a superior mechanism for me to adjust that slide; traditional slides just always seem finicky, and a bit awkward with the size of my hands and the way I prefer to hold the horn.
Has anyone installed a third slide trigger on other horns? I'm curious about Bachs, and what that would look like. |
Mine may be the only remaining Bach with a factory-installed trigger. Mine has a distinctive sound, which nobody can explain. The trigger may be one reason.
I would not advise adding a trigger, other than factory-installed, to a valuable horn. Too risky.
If anybody here can instruct me how to upload a pic, you could see the factory install. |
I also have a Bach Stradivarius from 1971, SN 525**, with factory installed triggers on both the first and third slides. The third slide also has a water key. I have a 1953 Olds Recording and the mechanism on the Bach appears identical. Personally I like the third slide trigger although it is not possible to easily adjust the maximum throw of the slide.
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1953 Olds Recording
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Manuel de los Campos
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Third Slide trigger |
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| kramergfy wrote: |
Has anyone installed a third slide trigger on other horns? |
My ol' Courtois C-trumpet had one. I liked it but my current Courtois C-trumpet has a normal trigger and that is okee to me as well
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frankcameraska
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Joined: 02 Apr 2016
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 1:52 am Post subject: |
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I had problems with the third slide adjustment since the beginning
Now I have a Bach NY and an Adams A5..both with a fixed ring on the third slide
perhaps I'll try and get one of the two modified (with original parts from the mother company) by my repairshop..
I'm sure Bach has the parts .. Adams I need to ceck
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