• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Orchestral Horns


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
vwag
Veteran Member


Joined: 17 Jul 2016
Posts: 168
Location: Denver, CO

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:33 pm    Post subject: Orchestral Horns Reply with quote

As a comeback player, and one that’s prone to tinker, I love seeing who plays what horn (maker and model). After trying some out, and settling into what works for me, it got me wondering- do most orchestra (and symphony?) players play Bach OR Yamaha. Is that it? Do you see any other makes/models out there played by those type of players? I thought I recall a specific horn section or two in certain cities going with Schilke or maybe one other, but it seems to have ‘that sound’ options are limited.

Unlike jazz- where you find garage tinkerers, super high end makers and everything in between where they create their own sound concepts, and capture a new audience. Cool stuff- but not for those classic players. Am I oversimplifying?

Thanks for any thoughts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GardyParty_11
New Member


Joined: 08 Nov 2017
Posts: 8
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like most orchestra trumpet sections are either exclusively Bach, Yamaha, or some blend of the two. There are few exceptions I can think of, but I'm pretty sure the Minnesota Orchestra and Oregon Symphony trumpet sections play Monette. I'm curious to know which sections are playing on Schilke or even Shires. Maybe Baltimore?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tpt_Guy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 828
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GardyParty_11 wrote:
It seems like most orchestra trumpet sections are either exclusively Bach, Yamaha, or some blend of the two. There are few exceptions I can think of, but I'm pretty sure the Minnesota Orchestra and Oregon Symphony trumpet sections play Monette. I'm curious to know which sections are playing on Schilke or even Shires. Maybe Baltimore?


Only Manny Laureano (principal) in Minnesota plays Monette.
_________________
-Tom Hall-
Bach 37 B flat
Bach 239 C w/Akright Leadpipe
Schilke E3L E flat
Stomvi Piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1021

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't really thought this through, so these are my initial musings.

Most pro orchestra players do play bach or yamaha. C trumpet is a really strange thing, it's just slightly shorter than the Bb, but seems to be wildly more sensitive to imperfection.

Orchestra players require:
1) extreme security at very extreme dynamics and everything in between
2) extreme consistency in intonation and response
3) a sound quality that can soar on top of a brass section (but also blend with any instrument)
4) Don't require them to expend more effort than needed for a particular output

Well, basically things that we look for in any instrument. (But just a note, until you hear great brass sections up close, you don't realize the level of dynamics that really do happen. mp to mf for them is how some of us play pp to ff.)

Great orchestral players are probably one of the most efficient subsets of trumpeters that exist (I know that may be a controversial statement, but I'm talking effort to output. If you played Mahler 6 four nights in a row at the level that tom hooten does you'd probably have to take a month off). The demands placed on them are also incredibly high. As such, they tend to have a way they want to play and the instrument is usually a degree of compromise in one of the factors above. So, these players are now (this is a departure from the old school player) constantly experimenting for that extra 1% in those categories. It's like cycling in the marginal gains department (can I reduce 10 watts of effort? Well then sure I'll wear a skin-suit and deflate my tires 1/2 a PSI).

Due to the high degree of experimentation, you need horns that are ready to be played and tested. There are really only 2 companies that produce C trumpets at the quantity and quality that are desired.

For a long time it was just Bach. You found one you liked and you stuck with it. Yamaha with their marginal gains developments and the duo of bob malone and wayne tanabe offering essentially boutique service has led to quite the shift.

Some other makers you see in the symphony:
Monette
Powell
Schilke
Blackburn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vwag
Veteran Member


Joined: 17 Jul 2016
Posts: 168
Location: Denver, CO

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always wonder about Manny. Did he take a ‘I don’t care what anyone thinks’ stance and play whatever he likes, or what looks beautiful?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Danbassin
Veteran Member


Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 296

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwag wrote:
I always wonder about Manny. Did he take a ‘I don’t care what anyone thinks’ stance and play whatever he likes, or what looks beautiful?


Not quite sure what you're getting at, here. Have you heard him live? Have you heard the recent MSO recordings, or some of the more vintage ones when Eij Oue was Music Director?

Manny Laureano, like any great principal player in a great orchestra, has chosen equipment that allows him to best realize his music. Further, as an ensemble leader who plays under a conductor and with colleagues, his equipment choices have changed over time to adjust to various circumstances and preferences - the earlier Copland, Strauss, etc. recordings were largely done on heavier Monettes from the 90s, which helped him realize his musical goals at that time, and more recently he's moved to lighter-weight Monettes. I can't recall whether some of his section mates used to play Dave's gear, but the MSO is now a (wonderful sounding) mixed section.

Whenever this gear (Monette) comes up in a general discussion, and especially when the general discussion focuses more on 'classical' music, bizarre opinions and assertions seem sure to follow. I've heard this great principal player you're questioning in person - up close and in the hall - and on record, and I would never presume to question his choices, musical or technical. We're talking about artists, here - who cares what kind of paint brush they use!?

This said, your comment about 'what looks beautiful' is telling - Charlie Schlueter coined the term 'visual ear' to talk about such biases...for the most part, only trumpeters are so anti- this mouthpiece, or sheepishly loyal to that horn...other musicians use their ears.

Happy practicing,
-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor, Composer, Trumpeter, Educator

I play:
Monette CORNETTE; MC-35 (on order!)
Bb: Bach 72 Sterling/Monette pipe/MK Slides
Picc: Schilke/Jeninga P-7 prototype
Flugel: Adams F4
MPCs: Monette Prana Resonance 1-1 series.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MalinTrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 505
Location: Delray Beach, Florida

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject: Orchestra horns Reply with quote

Don’t forget in England they still primarily play Bb’s. For years in San Francisco Glenn played a Conn C trumpet.
LCM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
vwag
Veteran Member


Joined: 17 Jul 2016
Posts: 168
Location: Denver, CO

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Daniel for the education, which was entirely based on the foolish speculation that the Bach/Yamaha sound is what everyone should sound like. I’ll make a point to hear some recent Manny recording see if my ear can even tell any difference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 11218
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danbassin wrote:
only trumpeters are so anti- this mouthpiece, or sheepishly loyal to that horn...other musicians use their ears.

Happy practicing,
-DB

Not necessarily true. Violinists, flutists, guitarists, saxophonists, pianists have their brand and make biases also. Conductors have been known to insist on certain types of trumpets in their sections.

While I don't disagree with the non-quoted points in your post, I think that trumpeters are no different than any other human being in having biases.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Vin DiBona
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: OHare area

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen the Minnesota trumpet section list their horns.
I still think they are all on the following.

Manny Laureano; Monette
Doug Carlson: Bach.
Bob Dorer: Sonare.
Chuck Lazarus: Yamaha.

There was remark made on Trumpet Master (maybe) or elsewhere on how these different horns worked so beautifully despite being very different manufacturers.
A web search did not bring any concrete results about this, though.
R. Tomasek
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
theslawdawg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 739
Location: Waikiki, Hawaii

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
I have seen the Minnesota trumpet section list their horns.
I still think they are all on the following.

Manny Laureano; Monette
Doug Carlson: Bach.
Bob Dorer: Sonare.
Chuck Lazarus: Yamaha.

There was remark made on Trumpet Master (maybe) or elsewhere on how these different horns worked so beautifully despite being very different manufacturers.
A web search did not bring any concrete results about this, though.
R. Tomasek


Any specs on which models each of them are?
_________________
My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane custom horns.
Monette XLT Prana
'56 #3 Martin Committee Deluxe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JWG
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a trumpet hobbyist and neophyte orchestral player, the experience of playing with guys who used to pay their bills as orchestral trumpet players has really opened my eyes and required me to learn new aural skills. Orchestra trumpet players execute each note with blending in mind . . . Blend with other trumpets next to you, blend with the other 80+ musicians around you, blend with the 80+ vocalists behind you. Orchestral trumpet playing really challenges you to listen for the imbalances and adjust instantaneously.

As for equipment, I have come to believe that it does not matter. Quality trumpets are no different than quality violins: each has its unique character. No conductor would require their entire violin section to procure Stradivari or Guarnari de Jesu violins to blend. If you have ever watched violin comparison competitions, each Stradivari sounds different from its sibling, as does each Guarnari. We could blind test a warehouse's worth of Bachs, Yamahas, Monettes, or whatever, and find them all slightly different from their siblings and from the offerings of their competitor manufacturers. Also, we would all likely disagree on what sounded best individually or in section, because the beauty of orchestral trumpet playing arises from the fact that what each individual player does behind his or her instrument, millisecond-by-millisecond, when executing a particular passage matters most.
_________________
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, & O mouthpieces
Bach 180SL72 with 1.5B 24/24 & M/K Drawing Bronze SR Tuning Slide and third valve slide
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 6598
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Danbassin wrote:
only trumpeters are so anti- this mouthpiece, or sheepishly loyal to that horn...other musicians use their ears.

Happy practicing,
-DB

Not necessarily true. Violinists, flutists, guitarists, saxophonists, pianists have their brand and make biases also. Conductors have been known to insist on certain types of trumpets in their sections.

While I don't disagree with the non-quoted points in your post, I think that trumpeters are no different than any other human being in having biases.


This.

Brad
_________________
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is mercy-less, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ricsim88
Regular Member


Joined: 16 May 2012
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember watching an interview with David Bilger where he talked about equipment used by players who were at the National brass group a couple of years ago. He said that among all the trumpet players there, there were only 2 brands represented....and my guess is one was more abundant than the other....
_________________
Richard Simoneau
Principal trumpet Symphony Nova Scotia
Maritime Brass Quintet
Dalhousie University faculty

Yamaha 9445NY 1st gen
Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Yamaha 9820C piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jadickson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1217
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

North Carolina Symphony section here in Raleigh is playing custom Powell trumpets.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
andybharms
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 May 2009
Posts: 560
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me dispel some confusion here. There are a lot of fine trumpets that people with full time orchestral jobs use. Those folks are entitled to use whatever they want.

But there is a difference between a comfortable tenured player in the middle of his or her career and someone who is actively auditioning, winning, and is on tenure track in full time orchestras. Those people are playing Bach and Yamaha, or an instrument fashioned distinctly after them. For whatever reason I don’t feel like getting into. A surprising number, myself included, have some of both. They are great trumpets and you simply can’t go wrong. Are there other great trumpets out there? Of course. But if you show up to an audition with one, are you willing to bet a committee of non-trumpet players is going to take a chance on someone who doesn’t sound like a trumpet typically sounds? No. They’re going to think something is wrong with your skill set. Play what you sound best on, but if you are thinking a whispy sound like reeds on a pond is how you want to sound, don’t waste your time in an orchestra.

As I said, some folks play other trumpets. Good for them. Not my preference, but nobody has emailed me broken hearted that they did not meet my personal equipment expectations
_________________
Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jerry
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 1909
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ricsim88 wrote:
I remember watching an interview with David Bilger where he talked about equipment used by players who were at the National brass group a couple of years ago. He said that among all the trumpet players there, there were only 2 brands represented....and my guess is one was more abundant than the other....

Wasn't David Bilger playing a third brand a few years ago in the Philadelphia Orchestra? He switched to one of the other two brands after that, yes?
Anyone know why he switched?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
MrOlds
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 625
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have a good number for how many trumpet players in the US make most of their income playing in an orchestra? I’m not talking about players that sometimes play in orchestras but also play in other genres. Or mostly teach. But dedicated orchestra players. Is it 1000? More? Fewer?

With a population of 1000 (just guessing) even if we name 50 players who play Monette or whatever that’s only 5% of the population.

Still we’re just talking about the big horns. What brands do they use for the smaller ones? Rotaries? There might be a bigger variety there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
trumpet_cop
Veteran Member


Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 223

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andybharms wrote:
Let me dispel some confusion here. There are a lot of fine trumpets that people with full time orchestral jobs use. Those folks are entitled to use whatever they want.

But there is a difference between a comfortable tenured player in the middle of his or her career and someone who is actively auditioning, winning, and is on tenure track in full time orchestras. Those people are playing Bach and Yamaha, or an instrument fashioned distinctly after them. For whatever reason I don’t feel like getting into. A surprising number, myself included, have some of both. They are great trumpets and you simply can’t go wrong. Are there other great trumpets out there? Of course. But if you show up to an audition with one, are you willing to bet a committee of non-trumpet players is going to take a chance on someone who doesn’t sound like a trumpet typically sounds? No. They’re going to think something is wrong with your skill set. Play what you sound best on, but if you are thinking a whispy sound like reeds on a pond is how you want to sound, don’t waste your time in an orchestra.

As I said, some folks play other trumpets. Good for them. Not my preference, but nobody has emailed me broken hearted that they did not meet my personal equipment expectations


Who's confused?
_________________
Good Ol' Boy ID#3624360
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ricsim88
Regular Member


Joined: 16 May 2012
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
Ricsim88 wrote:
I remember watching an interview with David Bilger where he talked about equipment used by players who were at the National brass group a couple of years ago. He said that among all the trumpet players there, there were only 2 brands represented....and my guess is one was more abundant than the other....

Wasn't David Bilger playing a third brand a few years ago in the Philadelphia Orchestra? He switched to one of the other two brands after that, yes?
Anyone know why he switched?


I believe he was playing a Shires before. As for the reason he switched, he his now involved in the design and fine tuning of one model of his new brand....brand Y..
As far as orchestra players brand of choice. Just by looking at the Artists from Brand Y shows that most of the players from major orchestras are using brand Y, both in the US and Canada. It’s hard to put an exact number, but principals in LA, San Francisco, San Diego, New York, Boston, Pittsburg, Philadelphia, and more than likely many more, all play brand Y...In Canada it’s also the most popular brand amongst principal players of large/medium size orchestras.
I’m guessing there’s a good reason for it.
_________________
Richard Simoneau
Principal trumpet Symphony Nova Scotia
Maritime Brass Quintet
Dalhousie University faculty

Yamaha 9445NY 1st gen
Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Yamaha 9820C piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group