Position of Jaw and Teeth

TBone · Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:46 pm Post subject:

Okay, I'm trying to clear a few things up... I'm reading a lot about the differences between a closed embouchure and an open embouchure, but much of what I've read doesn't mention the role of the jaw and teeth in the overall equation.

When I first began playing again, I assumed I had a closed embouchure because my lips were touching... but as time went on, I also realized that I was dropping my jaw to set my embouchure; so much so that I could fit the shank of my mouthpiece between my upper and lower teeth.

Is this correct?

How much space between the upper and lower teeth should there be in a "closed" embouchure? How much, if any, "jaw drop" should there be?

There are a few things I can't quite do, and I wonder if it's all a result of my jaw dropping. I can't free buzz AT ALL, and when I tongue, the tip of my tongue can't reach where my teeth and roof meet... I tongue slightly further back... but if I concentrate on "keeping my mouth shut", so to speak, I naturally tongue in the "textbook" area.

Normally I don't analyze to this extent, and the jaw drop has bugged me a bit, but when the tonguing realization hit me, I had to ask.

Thanks,
Bone
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I picked the trumpet back up after an 8 year "break", and boy does it feel good to have the rest of my left arm back.

tcutrpt · Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:49 pm Post subject:

Everyone will be different. Even the "normal" set up can do harm to some players. Worry about sound and fundamentals and let the physical things be unless you have a teacher who expresses concern. Getting advice on this forum without hearing you play is bad news. Just do what works for you and remember that you've just started playing again. It will take time to get back in shape!
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TBone · Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:15 am Post subject:

Everyone will be different. Even the "normal" set up can do harm to some players. Worry about sound and fundamentals and let the physical things be unless you have a teacher who expresses concern. Getting advice on this forum without hearing you play is bad news. Just do what works for you and remember that you've just started playing again. It will take time to get back in shape!

Good points... but just curious: How much do each of you "drop your jaw" to play; ie, how much space is between your upper and lower teeth?

Thanks!
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I picked the trumpet back up after an 8 year "break", and boy does it feel good to have the rest of my left arm back.

PH · Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:23 am Post subject:

You know what? As soon as I start thinking about this I lose the ability to play!

tcutrpt · Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:44 am Post subject:

BINGO, PH!
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TBone · Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:52 am Post subject:

If "not thinking about it" worked for everyone, we could do away with quite a few of the forum sections here

.

Again, this is just a curiosity of mine.
_________________
I picked the trumpet back up after an 8 year "break", and boy does it feel good to have the rest of my left arm back.

cperret · Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:19 am Post subject:

Quite right, TBone... if it were that easy for everyone, the world would be a better place, don't you think? Although I have to agree with PH - too much analysis can lead to even more problems. I try to search for approaches (to practicing and playing) that take advantage of pre-exisitng sensatsions as a reference point. Here's an example: Blow air through your lips like you're 'spitting a grain of rice' from between them. Notice that if you keep your teeth together (touching) you restrict the airflow. Alternately, if your mouth is open too wide, you can't get enough compression between your lips to blow properly, either. It makes sense to me that an efficient 'jaw setting' would be somewhere in between.

P.S. I've been trying to open my mouth far enough so that I couldn't reach my top teeth with my tongue, and I can't do it. That must be some mouth you have. Also, I've never seen any evidence of 'open embouchures' or 'closed embouchures'; Your lips and teeth have to be close enough to vibrate and far enough apart to let air through. ...Good luck!

PJN · Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:41 pm Post subject:

Tbone,

I am also a comeback player, with almost three years of daily practice under my belt.

I went through a lot of different sensations. My brain thinks it remembers how things used to feel, when really Trumpet playing is not just like riding a bike! For all the assumptions I have made about how my chops should feel, as I work and grow as a player, my chops change. When I was a kid, I just simply did not think about it.

There are lots of ways to produce the sound model you have in your head, not all of them will work efficiently. At some point your muscles will tell you this. Usually sooner than later. As much effort as is involved in playing, I am finding I am more able to relax as time goes by. This is simply counter intuitive, how can I have firm corners, and have relaxed corners at the same time? I don't know, but I keep practicing and when things get easier I try to replicate THAT feeling. Bobby Shew says Sharpen your powers of observation!

Check out his site, by the way he has some good material there. Also Caruso has helped me focus my playing in a way that nothing in the prior two years had accomplished. It is working for me, for what that is worth.

Enjoy the music, and good luck.

Patrick
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_Japle · Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:00 pm Post subject:

As a comeback player, I made a lot of mistakes, mostly having to do with lip aperture and jaw opening. I wanted a big sound and used very open settings to start with.
Free-buzzing (without the mouthpiece) combined with starting each warmup with breath attacks took care of the open lip setting.
I wondered why my tongue position had no effect on so-called "air speed", range, lip trills, etc. It was because my jaw was too open. As soon as I closed my teeth to within about 1/8" (that's how it feels to me) I could do "tongue trills" and my endurance increased dramatically.
Wayne Bergeron says that after getting the chip on his front tooth repaired, he couldn't make a sound on the horn. In a panic, he filed the tooth himself and regained his sound. His teeth must be touching, or close to it. Blowing high-speed air through the tooth gap might be one factor in his range.
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John
Cape Canaveral

_dcstep · Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:46 am Post subject:

I'm at around 1/4" and I'm having no problem thinking while I play.

Tbone, if your shank is around 1/4" you're probably ok. Aren't you doing B.E.? If so, just keep doing the excercises while using the CD and things will take care of themselves, I'll bet.

Dave
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TBone · Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:46 am Post subject:

Thanks for the input, guys!

dcstep: I haven't looked at B.E. much, but I'll definately take a look at it. It seems that I'm just under a 1/4", too.

PJN: I just checked out Shew's site - great info there... thanks for the tip! I also just started Caruso, and that's what actually got me thinking about this. There's a cross-section of the mouth on one of the first pages, and that's when I realized that my teeth weren't that close together when playing. When I made a conscious effort to bring them a little closer (to about 1/8"), I experienced noticeably better range, and flexibility within that range. Tone was a bit better, too. The downside is, that it doesn't feel as natural as 1/4" does. Bummer

.

I have my first "comeback" lesson this Saturday, so I'll definately be asking my teacher about this.

As for "not thinking about it", I certainly understand the pitfalls of "paralysis by analysis", but the reason I tend to analyze things so much now is because I DIDN'T the first time around, and I started so many bad habbits. Ultimately, it lead to my 8 year "break", because my embouchure was so screwed up that after even years of playing, my lips were still undeveloped in terms of a correct embouchure. In fact, I sound and play better today - after two weeks into my comeback - than I did 8 years ago playing on this "correct" embouchure. Now, playing "incorrectly", I could tear things up as long as I didn't have to play higher than C5. But beyond that, I was screwed - along with whatever group I was playing in. I also had no endurance and absolutely ZERO flexibility.

So, when I inquire about what are otherwise mundane things like "how far apart are most people's teeth", you can understand my paranoia

.
_________________
I picked the trumpet back up after an 8 year "break", and boy does it feel good to have the rest of my left arm back.

Martin J. Rooney · Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:59 am Post subject:

Try for 1/4" in your back teeth. This will give you a good cavity for resonance. Try using a piece of rubber eraser cut to this size or slightly smaller (3/16th)(some people use a dice, but the hard feeling hurts my teeth). It will feel weird, but will get you an idea of the amount you should shoot for. Good luck!
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