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supercow216 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2018 Posts: 60 Location: Finland
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:57 am Post subject: Playing high with just sighing |
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Hi,
I have been practicing Balanced Embouchure by Jeff for 8 months, with some success with both RI and RO. My top note was a high C but not very inconsistent.
I recently watched a video by Paul Mayes. He suggests that players should always sigh when starting a note.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zmGHEeIJPQ
After testing back and forth, I found the only way to play this way is to have the lower jaw protruding, and play in the "upstream" (made-up word) style. Every note up to high C is suddenly clear and smooth as butter. When going higher than that, I need to "open my throat more" (sorry I have no idea how to explain this transcending feeling), like you should be "puking" to play high???.
Interestingly, my top lip definitely roll in and out freely as BE indicated but my lower lip is locked due to the protruding jaw. TOL now also feel very normal, with no discomfort. With this settings however, I can't do RO and RI, or squeaking and have to do them isolatedly. But as Jeff said, practing BE and playing with your normal embouchure!
Like I said, the feeling was quite dope!!!! Does anyone practice this sigh approach? _________________ Oink, oink.
I am still learning! |
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acritzer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 829 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:11 am Post subject: |
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I've watched a bunch of Paul's videos and really enjoy them. I've had some success in attempting the sigh concept, but it hasn't created any amazing break throughs.
I have noticed that when I really concentrate on using the sigh my upper register is flat. E and Eb in particular. Not really sure if it's a gap, mp, or all of the above issue, but it's something I've noticed. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3349 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Seems to me, the main point of that Mayes videos is about 'air support'.
Using a large quantity of air as is brought in during the inhale portion of a 'big sigh' (a big relaxed inhale followed by a large 'somewhat forced' exhale originating and supported in the chest/torso).
I think that Mayes is discussing ONLY the air in and out of the chest in that video. I don't think he is referring to any mouth or jaw movements that occur during a 'sigh' - and especially NOT the mouth relaxation that occurs at the finish of a sigh.
For me, I think I get better understanding from that video by 'watching' what he is demonstrating.
Not by trying to understand what he has in mind with his use of words such as:
sigh, warm / cold air.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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supercow216 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2018 Posts: 60 Location: Finland
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I noticed that it is not about embouchure at all. Sighing has an effect of relaxing the throat and thus keeping the whole air pipe from being constricted.
My point is, to be able to play with sighing, one first needs to find a proper embouchure that does not interfere with the air column (throat, neck).
In my case, I find that protruding the jaw seems to be way to make play sighing naturally, and I never discovered this way up until now!!!
So one (who struggle) may want to try out which chop settings work best with play sighing
JayKosta wrote: | Seems to me, the main point of that Mayes videos is about 'air support'.
Using a large quantity of air as is brought in during the inhale portion of a 'big sigh' (a big relaxed inhale followed by a large 'somewhat forced' exhale originating and supported in the chest/torso).
I think that Mayes is discussing ONLY the air in and out of the chest in that video. I don't think he is referring to any mouth or jaw movements that occur during a 'sigh' - and especially NOT the mouth relaxation that occurs at the finish of a sigh.
For me, I think I get better understanding from that video by 'watching' what he is demonstrating.
Not by trying to understand what he has in mind with his use of words such as:
sigh, warm / cold air.
Jay |
_________________ Oink, oink.
I am still learning! |
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supercow216 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2018 Posts: 60 Location: Finland
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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if it is flat, then usually there is something with air column. I feel that with sighing, if you engage your abdominal muscle too late or too early, the laryinx closes and the air gets stuck at the throat.
My problem is the airy middle register. The octave above middle C is quite clear and easy.
Trumpet hobbyists like me usually find days of brilliance without knowing why, and crash another day. But yeah, pretty excited for now
acritzer wrote: | I've watched a bunch of Paul's videos and really enjoy them. I've had some success in attempting the sigh concept, but it hasn't created any amazing break throughs.
I have noticed that when I really concentrate on using the sigh my upper register is flat. E and Eb in particular. Not really sure if it's a gap, mp, or all of the above issue, but it's something I've noticed. |
_________________ Oink, oink.
I am still learning! |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1108 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Playing high with just sighing |
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supercow216 wrote: |
After testing back and forth, I found the only way to play this way is to have the lower jaw protruding, and play in the "upstream" (made-up word) style. Every note up to high C is suddenly clear and smooth as butter. When going higher than that, I need to "open my throat more" (sorry I have no idea how to explain this transcending feeling), like you should be "puking" to play high??? |
The term "upstream" is covered pretty thoroughly in Reinhardt's Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, as well as other embouchure types.
As far as how you describe opening the throat more, when I was in choir in college, the director described it as "maintaining a feeling of surprise." That is to say, when someone takes a breath in surprise and maintains that open feeling, that open feeling is the goal and will enable an open, resonant singing voice. It just so happens this works perfectly on brass instruments.
This changed my breathing pattern from inhale-close-release (a fairly disjointed breathing pattern) to inhale-exhale in one fluid motion.
Made a huge difference. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 903 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Thinking about sighing is a great way to prevent overblowing, because a sigh is a natural function we do without even thinking about it. We breathe in and the air just goes out in a relaxed effortless way. When I think of "blowing" air I often introduce too much strain and tension. |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 901 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:25 am Post subject: |
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salut supercow,
the jaw motion is connected to the tongue motion or action (like we discussed in the thread about "upstream players"), and of course will impact the "throat opening or restriction" depending on how correctly you're arching the tongue.
And also the embouchure
and these factors have to be balanced, and if things get better while you can't ri or ro anymore, that's not the point. Of course we sometimes need time to master an efficient technic, but if you're doing this technic correctly and it doesn't work, keeping on will be only ideologic and hurt itself against reality.
best |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3349 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:21 am Post subject: teaching methods and style |
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An interesting (and important) aspect of this discussion about the 'sigh technique' and later mention of 'maintaining a feeling of surprise' is that different teaching methods can work better than others. Perhaps it depends on the student, or perhaps on the teacher, but regardless it is beneficial if it produces good results.
Variations include:
What the body (physiology) should be doing.
What the person should 'feel' the body doing.
What other action is an example of what to do.
The 'example' method might be most successful when the teacher/student have 'verbal difficultly' explaining or understanding. But if there is a good 'generally understood universal action' that can be used as an example, it can work.
For example: brass players lip relaxation 'horse noise lip flapping' - trying to explain it in words would be difficult, but the analogy is universally understood and done.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3281 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:48 am Post subject: |
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I have watched the videos by Paul. He really does not explain exactly what he means by the sigh breath. Perhaps he means using only the elastic recoil of full lungs for air pressure. He may be discussing the inhalation or an attempt to drop the jaw or open the throat. He simply does not make that clear or explain it thoroughly.
What IS clear is that he believes that resistance creates air pressure (it doesn't) and that air pressure determines pitch (it doesn't).
Jaw04 wrote: Quote: | Thinking about sighing is a great way to prevent overblowing, because a sigh is a natural function we do without even thinking about it. We breathe in and the air just goes out in a relaxed effortless way. When I think of "blowing" air I often introduce too much strain and tension |
The elastic recoil pressure is always in effect. But it ALONE is not sufficient to play music. The effort of "blowing" will raise the pressure required at any instant to play achieve the musical goal. Playing a tone requires air pressure (and flow), but this action is not effortless but neither is it "tension".
OP wrote: Quote: | Does anyone practice this sigh approach? |
No. And neither should you. You should consult only Jeff at this point. You should stay with Jeff's instruction and give it an opportunity to work. |
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supercow216 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2018 Posts: 60 Location: Finland
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:26 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | No. And neither should you. You should consult only Jeff at this point. You should stay with Jeff's instruction and give it an opportunity to work. |
I am aware of it. I am still practicing BE everyday, but doing RI and RO separatedly (30 mins away) from fundamental stuffs.
I am just suggesting starting a note with a different setting which allows me to better support subsequent notes. Once the feeling of "free flowing" is achieved, I forget about it and move on to slurs, TOL...
As I said, my top lip and corners' movements while ascending and descending are still very much BE movements, so I credit that to Jeff. _________________ Oink, oink.
I am still learning! |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3281 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Nothing is "free" and that goes for blowing as well.
Last edited by kalijah on Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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supercow216 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2018 Posts: 60 Location: Finland
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:38 am Post subject: |
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JVL wrote: | salut supercow,
the jaw motion is connected to the tongue motion or action (like we discussed in the thread about "upstream players"), and of course will impact the "throat opening or restriction" depending on how correctly you're arching the tongue.
And also the embouchure
and these factors have to be balanced, and if things get better while you can't ri or ro anymore, that's not the point. Of course we sometimes need time to master an efficient technic, but if you're doing this technic correctly and it doesn't work, keeping on will be only ideologic and hurt itself against reality.
best |
Salut,
Probably "upstream players" is the right word. I come by such term somewhere in the forum and feel that it is quite intuitive, but not sure the correct term. Pretty sure it has been described elsewhere in this forum.
But yes, my goal now is exactly to balance this new found free flowing setting (probably more like feeling, rather than setting) with my current exercises. _________________ Oink, oink.
I am still learning! |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:49 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | I have watched the videos by Paul. He really does not explain exactly what he means by the sigh breath. Perhaps he means using only the elastic recoil of full lungs for air pressure. He may be discussing the inhalation or an attempt to drop the jaw or open the throat. He simply does not make that clear or explain it thoroughly.
What IS clear is that he believes that resistance creates air pressure (it doesn't) and that air pressure determines pitch (it doesn't). |
While I can see how you would draw the conclusion that he believes that air pressure determines pitch, I'm not sure that's true. I looked earlier and couldn't find it, but I remember seeing a comment on one of his videos which asked something along the lines of, "what's the relationship between lip tension and air flow", and his answer was basically, "what's happening from a scientific standpoint isn't necessarily the best way to describe the way we feel this, or how we teach it". Perhaps someone else can link to that comment.
In any event, I think he's trying to get people not to overblow, which I certainly agree with (and I suspect you do also, from what I remember of your posts), and if he uses some hyperbole towards that effect, or sighing as the best available proxy to describe the feeling, I think that's probably as valid as any other teaching approach.
EDIT: I found the comment in question:
Francis Maziers:
Hi again Paul. Could you tell me, is it the speed of the air that define the pitch or is it the tension of the lips (like a guitar string) or both? Thanks a lot!
The Trumpet Prof:
There are several answers to that question! The "truth" scientifically is not always the most helpful answer practically so for now focus on air pressure to define pitch by creating resistance for the air. Try to keep top lip tension to a minimum. TP
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_zYNudrpaY&t=1s)
Last edited by Steve A on Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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supercow216 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2018 Posts: 60 Location: Finland
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:51 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Nothing is "free" and that goes blowing as well. |
but maybe sighing is free?
I am not advocating any specific setting or lip position. I just want to share my experience of finding that playing trumpet with such nice feeling is possible, (and I guess the goal should be that way too, regardless of the methods).
A crappy analogy would be, when one gets familiar to Miles Davies sounds and imagine his sound when one play. Without mimicking his lips, or his wah mute _________________ Oink, oink.
I am still learning! |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3281 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | The Trumpet Prof:
There are several answers to that question! The "truth" scientifically is not always the most helpful answer practically so for now focus on air pressure to define pitch by creating resistance for the air. Try to keep top lip tension to a minimum. TP |
See. He dismisses science as helpful and then immediately follows with a "science" explanation. And a poor one at that.
There is nothing about scientific truth that is detrimental to playing or that is unhelpful. The problem is that he doesn't understand the science. His videos are filled with erroneous and misunderstood mechanics.
Quote: | maybe sighing is free? |
Maybe. But playing is not sighing. There is nothing I do while playing that resembles sighing. |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:11 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Quote: | The Trumpet Prof:
There are several answers to that question! The "truth" scientifically is not always the most helpful answer practically so for now focus on air pressure to define pitch by creating resistance for the air. Try to keep top lip tension to a minimum. TP |
See. He dismisses science as helpful and then immediately follows with a "science" explanation. And a poor one at that.
There is nothing about scientific truth that is detrimental to playing or that is unhelpful. The problem is that he doesn't understand the science. His videos are filled with erroneous and misunderstood mechanics.
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I think we're interpreting what he wrote differently. If he instead said "so for now focus on visualizing air pressure to define pitch", would you have the same objection? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3349 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Steve A wrote: | ...
Francis Maziers:
Hi again Paul. Could you tell me, is it the speed of the air that define the pitch or is it the tension of the lips (like a guitar string) or both? Thanks a lot!
The Trumpet Prof:
There are several answers to that question! The "truth" scientifically is not always the most helpful answer practically so for now focus on air pressure to define pitch by creating resistance for the air. Try to keep top lip tension to a minimum. TP
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_zYNudrpaY&t=1s) |
------------------------------------------------
I would interpret (through unwieldly sentence structure analysis) description as:
1) Create adequate top lip tension to produce ('define') the pitch. The amount of tension should be the minimum to achieve the pitch.
2) Create enough resistance (by the lips) to air flow so the lip is forced to vibrate in response to air flow.
3) Create air flow by internal air pressure to cause lip vibration.
followed by my exasperated sigh that includes a big relaxed inhale, and a forceful exhale thru tight lips,
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3281 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | If he instead said "so for now focus on visualizing air pressure to define pitch", would you have the same objection? |
Yes. For 3 reasons:
1. It does not correlate with the actual mechanics.
2. Visualizing anything is of little use unless you are specific about what action should occur.
3. If "visualizing" (or literally varying) air pressure controls pitch. What then controls dynamics?
So visualization or metaphors that are 180 degrees from the true mechanics are problematic. |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 901 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Science is one thing, teaching another, learning another one, and truth a fourth one.
When you want to teach somebody how to play well, nice and easy, you must know your matter, how to transmit it to a specific individual. And sometimes a "false" image will have a more efficient, positive practical impact, than an image based on "true" science most of the pupils/students/pros will not understand or be able to apply.
Are we talking about pedagogy or science just for labs ?
best
(just to avoid some debates that could insinuate i don't care about sciences, i'll precise that i published a book whose english title would be "Principles of physical preparation applied to instrumental practice. High level sport methodology applied to instrumental practice", validated by a world known trainer & teacher, and ex international athlete) |
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