Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:30 pm Post subject: Sigh clearification
Steve A wrote:
kalijah wrote:
I have watched the videos by Paul. He really does not explain exactly what he means by the sigh breath. Perhaps he means using only the elastic recoil of full lungs for air pressure. He may be discussing the inhalation or an attempt to drop the jaw or open the throat. He simply does not make that clear or explain it thoroughly.
What IS clear is that he believes that resistance creates air pressure (it doesn't) and that air pressure determines pitch (it doesn't).
While I can see how you would draw the conclusion that he believes that air pressure determines pitch, I'm not sure that's true. I looked earlier and couldn't find it, but I remember seeing a comment on one of his videos which asked something along the lines of, "what's the relationship between lip tension and air flow", and his answer was basically, "what's happening from a scientific standpoint isn't necessarily the best way to describe the way we feel this, or how we teach it". Perhaps someone else can link to that comment.
In any event, I think he's trying to get people not to overblow, which I certainly agree with (and I suspect you do also, from what I remember of your posts), and if he uses some hyperbole towards that effect, or sighing as the best available proxy to describe the feeling, I think that's probably as valid as any other teaching approach.
EDIT: I found the comment in question:
Francis Maziers:
Hi again Paul. Could you tell me, is it the speed of the air that define the pitch or is it the tension of the lips (like a guitar string) or both? Thanks a lot!
The Trumpet Prof:
There are several answers to that question! The "truth" scientifically is not always the most helpful answer practically so for now focus on air pressure to define pitch by creating resistance for the air. Try to keep top lip tension to a minimum. TP
Having actually taken a lesson with Paul, I can add a little insight to the conjecture. I'm not an expert, but this is what I understand at this point.
The main purpose of the sigh is twofold: relaxation of the face, throat, and top lip; and to deliver the air to the lips in a resonance-supporting manor rather than overblowing. Mayes does not equate this to Peter Bond's Singing Trumpet, but he does say that it is similar to Greg Spence's approach to breathing in Mystery to Mastery. I think it's similar to both.
Further, his Mayes Double-Aperture System (MDAS) relies upon a very relaxed top lip "outer aperture" and (usually) the bottom lip regulating a natural air space formed between the bottom lip and the upper teeth (could be a gap, chip, misalignment, or even the curvature of a tooth) the "inner aperture". He refers to this inner aperture as what a player naturally has. And, the goal of the system is to produce the sound with the relaxed top lip (outer aperture) and to control the pitch by changing the size of the airstream through inner aperture as it then impacts the top/bottom-lip interface. The two apertures work together like parts of an engine. (turbocharged? )
He does explicitly teach that the pitch is determined by the width of the (outer) lip aperture, and in his system, the size of that lip aperture is controlled by the size of the airstream hitting the relaxed upper lip. The top lip does not control the pitch, but reacts to the airstream, which is controlled by the inner aperture. This reduces the conundrum of trying to relax the lips for an open sound while simultaneously contracting the lips to control the pitch.
It's truly unique in my experience, but Paul maintains that most great players with excellent range and control are unknowingly using this mechanism.
One major benefit of MDAS is that by reducing the muscular tension in the top lip, endurance is greatly increased.
Obviously, there is much more to the system. I'll update as I experiment and learn.
A lesson with Paul, The Trumpet Prof, is recommended if you have questions. Well worth it. _________________ Harrelson Dreams Trumpet
SIMA
Harrelson SpectraTone Yellow
Patrick 5.3C
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Sigh clearification
Regarding Paul Mayes, and
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_zYNudrpaY&t=1s)
elgin wrote:
...
He does explicitly teach that the pitch is determined by the width of the (outer) lip aperture, and in his system, the size of that lip aperture is controlled by the size of the airstream hitting the relaxed upper lip. The top lip does not control the pitch, but reacts to the airstream, which is controlled by the inner aperture. ...
-----------------------------
The pitch is controlled by the lip aperture (the aperture's size, shape, position, tensions, etc.) AND by the controlled air flow). It's a 'team effort'.
All of those aspects of the aperture need to be adjusted so the aperture is 'motivated' to vibrate / pulse at the desired pitch when the controlled air flow passes through and activates the trumpet. The air flow must be adjusted to work with the aperture - air is the motivating force, and the aperture needs to be adjusted / regulated to react to the air flow. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:14 am Post subject:
I don't understand the actual function of the aperture. I looked at my embouchure using a mouthpiece visualizer and I don't have an opening between my lips. They are touching with no opening. Now you say the aperture controls pitch and volume, if you can describe how you control the aperture to do this it would be very helpful.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:50 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
I don't understand the actual function of the aperture. ...
-------------------------------
The aperture forms when air pressure is applied inside the mouth. The physical properties of the resulting aperture depend on how the lips / muscles / jaw /tongue are (were) adjusted when the air pressure results in air flow.
I don't attempt to form an actual aperture prior to blowing, I just position everything (by feel) so that controlled air flow will result in the proper sounding of the desired note. If I'm having trouble, then I do give more attention to the feel, and whether it seems to match the feeling when no trouble.
Some people might (or claim to) form an aperture without air flow, but that is probably just 'personal differences' - the important issue is the functioning of the aperture WITH air flow.
My simplistic view is that the 'function of the aperture' is to provide an oscillating (opening and closing) valve that is activated by the air flow and the internal acoustics of the instrument. The various adjustments that are done to control the aperture determine the tone of the sound. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:29 am Post subject:
How do you adjust your aperture when playing say a three octave G scale. When I play this, there is no aperture, my lips are always touching. You say the size of the opening between your lips control the pitch so how do you open and close your aperture when playing from a G below the staff to G above high C?
So see if I understand this, low notes use a bagger aperture than high notes, then wouldn't the aperture cut off the sound when playing double high C and above. How do you get your lips to vibrate if they aren't together when you have an opening or aperture between them.
If you would post a video of you demonstrating how you do this ,then we could see and hear how this works.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 6:38 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
... When I play this, there is no aperture, my lips are always touching. ...
-----------------------------------
How does air get through your lips if there is no opening?
Is there any type opening?
If there is some sort of opening, what do you call it?
I believe there must be some opening for the air flow, and it is usually called the aperture.
If any type of 'embouchure control' (including excessive lip compression, tightness, rim pressure, etc.) causes the internal air pressure to not be able to pass through the lips, then there will be no aperture and no sound.
If 'embouchure control' prohibits the lips from being capable of vibrating and there IS an opening that allows air flow, then an 'air ball' is likely or a significant decrease in loudness. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:11 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
so does the aperture control both range and volume?
------------------------
Not by itself.
It's the coordinated control of both aperture and air flow that controls / determines pitch / tone / loudness / etc.
I believe that in actual playing, most people do not address that 'control' as 2 separate items - through practice they have developed the feeling of what is necessary for both embouchure and air, and they duplicate that feeling as opposed to specific 'control' actions.
In practice situations, a player can be more thoughtful about the controls, and learn the feelings that give good results.
Some players might not even give thought to specific embouchure control actions. They concentrate solely on air flow, and 'find a way' to manipulate their body (lips, jaw, tongue, chest, etc.) in a way that produces the desired sound from their feeling of air flow. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:36 am Post subject:
Show an example of you demonstrating this. My lips are always touching with no visible opening between my touching buzzing lips. So my take on this is I should have no sound because I don't have an opening between my lips. I say if the lips aren't touching they aren't buzzing, no buzz no sound especially in the upper registers. I don't understand how you can play in the extreme upper register if you lips are separated .
If can play a G above high C by adjusting your aperture , I'd like to hear you do it.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:02 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
... My lips are always touching with no visible opening between my touching buzzing lips.
...
If can play a G above high C by adjusting your aperture , I'd like to hear you do it.
--------------------------
Just because you cannot see an opening doesn't mean there isn't one. How could there be air flow without there (sometime during each vibration / buzzing cycle) be an opening for the air to flow?
And no, the opening probably doesn't look like the static 'aperture picture' of an oboe reed . It's just 'moving lip tissue' that opens enough to allow air flow.
That 'oboe reed aperture picture' is an educational tool to give an idea of what the theoretical aperture might look like, sometime during the vibrating cycle.
Are you claiming that the lips can buzz without air flow?
About G above high C, are you suggesting that the lips can maintain the same exact 'posture' (tightness, angle, roll, compression, etc.) for ALL notes above a certain point?
If the lips are not (perhaps not consciously) adjusted for some high notes, how does the player achieve the desired ones?
Maybe by changing internal pressure or the sensation of air speed - but I think doing it that way also requires the player to adjust the resistance of the air flow into the mouthpiece - and that resistance comes from the lips, some adjustment to the lips / aperture is needed and done - even if unconsciously. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:48 pm Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
Show an example of you demonstrating this. My lips are always touching with no visible opening between my touching buzzing lips. So my take on this is I should have no sound because I don't have an opening between my lips. I say if the lips aren't touching they aren't buzzing, no buzz no sound especially in the upper registers. I don't understand how you can play in the extreme upper register if you lips are separated .
If can play a G above high C by adjusting your aperture , I'd like to hear you do it.
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:43 am Post subject:
I never said the lips were locked shut , I said they were touching. You can see where air is passing through touching lips causing them to vibrate . There is no formed aperture or opening, air causes the lips to fluctuate creating a buzz. I do have camera lens with different aperture settings but not my in embouchure
What size apertures do you use for a C below the staff , C in the staff, C above the staff , and double high C ? I play with a slight roll in of my lower lip with my top lip covering it. No visible opening or aperture, just touching lips .If they don't touch they don't vibrate , if they don't vibrate there is no sound.
If you say you can gat tone with your lips apart or if you prefer forming an opening or aperture in these registers I'd like to hear you do it.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 6:23 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
.. just touching lips .If they don't touch they don't vibrate , if they don't vibrate there is no sound. ...
-----------------------------------------
Yes, definitely there has to be some sort of 'vibration' that gives the air pressure changes that creates or enhances the 'standing wave' resonance inside the instrument.
It is not clear to me that the lips have to fully 'touch' at any point in the cycle to have the vibrations occur. It might be that some players do have some non-touching, and are still able to create the vibrations and air pressure oscillation that is needed to produce sound. It might depend on the flexibility of their lip tissue.
For me, the key points are:
1) the lips have to be ABLE to vibrate when there is air flow.
2) the player needs to be able to produce air flow from a reasonable amount of internal air pressure.
3) the player does not attempt to physically 'buzz into the mouthpiece'.
4) the player is able (learns how) to adjust their lips and air flow to produce the desired sound. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:21 am Post subject:
So you're saying your lips don't touch when you play . You must have an amazing embouchure with no touching no buzz. How do play in the upper register with your lips not touching and apart ? Show us an example of you doing this.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:30 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
So you're saying your lips don't touch when you play . ...
--------------------
JayKosta wrote:
... It might be that some players ...
I don't know precisely what is happening with my lips when playing - I can't see them, and judging by feel is not dependable for me. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:40 am Post subject:
Okay so you admit you don't know what's happening with you lips. So why are you telling us how to use them ? Guessing what you think might be happing is not very helpful. If you know you know, if you don't you don't. Don't make things up.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:15 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
Okay so you admit you don't know what's happening with you lips. ...
------------------------------
I'm not trying to tell anyone precisely 'what to do' - I'm trying to explain 'what overall functionality' needs to be achieved. I'm confident that if players have a good high-level understanding of 'what needs to be happening', they'll be able to recognize when it isn't, and be thinking about why it isn't, and how to make it happen.
Yes, I do give suggestions about various things that a person can try, or at least think about - hopefully I'm not dogmatic about precise detail by saying 'it has to be done this way'.
-- but yes, forced buzzing into the mouthpiece while playing should not be done. Same with jamming the rim into the lips until they bleed or the teeth break. There are probably also a few others. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:53 am Post subject:
I never met anyone who forced their lips to buzz inside the mouthpiece. and use so pressure that it caused their lips to bleed. If they did this they would have no sound. I want to know why you tell someone to do something while admitting it doesn't for you . You say you can't make it work so do it anyway. Don't you think you should be able backup your own advice? Guessing isn't helpful.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:15 pm Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
... I want to know why you tell someone to do something while admitting it doesn't for you . You say you can't make it work so do it anyway. Don't you think you should be able backup your own advice? Guessing isn't helpful.
-----------------------------
????
what are you talking about ?
I sometimes speculate (guess) about something that someone might be doing (or could try) in order to make them think about it, and for them to decide how it works for them.
The precise way 'that works for me' might not be appropriate for someone else. And just because something doesn't work for me doesn't mean it won't work for them - as long as the 'basic functionality' is achieved. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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