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thomasjet123
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Location: Yorkshire, England
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 Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:48 am Post subject: Warming up on soprano cornet |
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Hi all,
I've been playing soprano cornet now for about a year and have recently joined a band with a permanent seat on the instrument. I have a problem however; I don't have a set warm up routine. Can any of you tell me what's the best way to warm up on this instrument?
Also are there any books (like the arban) that can help to improve technique on an Eb instrument?
Thanks
Thomas |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:15 am Post subject: |
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There are a ton of warm-up routines, including your own. To the best of my knowledge, there is no trumpet/cornet warm-up routine that is specific, one from another.
What you need to do is find the one that best covers what your needs are. What are you using now, or did you mean it when you implied none?
You can take a look for free at "An Integrated Warmup by Laurie Frink", Bill Adams "Harold Mitchell's Warmups" etc.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Jabroni
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Joined: 25 May 2015
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:20 am Post subject: WARM UP |
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Good day,
You are literally in the heart and soul of the brass band universe. You can contact teachers such as Chris Turner or even have a lesson with Richard Marshall! Or better yet the Sop player from Cory Band. You will get some answers here but I am a bit surprised you are not using the resources that are literally in your area! |
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trumpet_cop
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Joined: 18 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Scales and slurs would probably be fine as a warm up. Anything that can connect the lower range through to the upper.
Improving technique on the instrument in what way? Like improving fundamentals, or improving playing the instrument itself? Playing the instrument for longer periods daily while being very deliberate and aware of your actions on it will make your playing better. This means tuning, seeing if any notes speak oddly, dynamics, where do you need alternates (it's soprano so you will definitely need them) things like that.
Stamp exercises or the Cichowicz warm ups work to get acquainted with horns that are new to oneself. Jabroni is also right though: consult a Soprano big wig in your region. Not a cornet player solo or otherwise, an honest to god dedicated soprano player.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:13 am Post subject: |
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trumpet- cop.
What are the Cichowicz warmups? I've never heard of them and would be interested in taking a look at them. Thanks.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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trumpet_cop
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | trumpet- cop.
What are the Cichowicz warmups? I've never heard of them and would be interested in taking a look at them. Thanks. |
I'm certain you already know them. They are what people usually refer to as his "Flow Studies" so the old, G-F#-G-A-G-E-C, etc. I have been told by many reputable sources that those are actually the warm-ups to the flow studies. If you were to purchase the books that Mark Dulin and Mike Cichowicz put out, they are compiled that way.
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zaferis
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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I always start my day on a Bb (cornet or trumpet) so that I'm pretty comfortable with my chops before picking up "the little beast".
Then some of the same things I do on a big horn.. scales, flow studies, Clarke Studies, a piece of an etude, solo, excerpts, depending on how the face feels and enough to remember what the Eb feels like. Starting softly so not to overblow / overwork.
Pretty much the same approach I have on Picc.
Slow and smooth is always best.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, trumpet_cop.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Voltrane
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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@Kehaulany
As far as I remember An integrated warm up includes some Cichowicz flows. |
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Seymor B Fudd
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | I always start my day on a Bb (cornet or trumpet) so that I'm pretty comfortable with my chops before picking up "the little beast".
Then some of the same things I do on a big horn.. scales, flow studies, Clarke Studies, a piece of an etude, solo, excerpts, depending on how the face feels and enough to remember what the Eb feels like. Starting softly so not to overblow / overwork.
Pretty much the same approach I have on Picc.
Slow and smooth is always best. |
+1!
Not a very good idea to begin the day with the "little beast". I never did - reason being that in no time you might have killed your chops.
Playing a B flat trumpet/cornet you do not begin playing tones above last F in the staff. So - instead begin with your usual warm ups for cornet/trumpet; presently I use 1)Laurie Frink´s 2)Dave Belknaps compilation of Schlossberg - but watch out not to over-strain your chops 3)maybe just me but I have made formidable use of the BE method. The RO:s are very beneficial and the RI helps gaining stamina. Among other things.
Anyway - when your chops are flexible and warm enough, then you can start the soprano. However - difficult licks I always approached on the Bflat cornet in order to set the finger movements - then I tested them on the soprano. Trying to master, prima vista, a difficult run at the same time playing it above G on staff with the soprano.....nope!
Eventually you will learn your limits, what is possible to practice - including gaining that psychic strength which is mandatory playing the little beast. 
So in the wise words of Zaferis:Slow and smooth is always best!
ps using rather similar mothpieces helped me (at the time Bach 1 1/4 C for Bb 1 and 1/2 C for Eb).
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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eric33
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Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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Location: france, nantes
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
You should give a chance to Bud Brisbois warm up (trumpet today)...😉
Eric |
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GordonH
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:25 am Post subject: |
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I played soprano cornet in First and Championship section for a few years. There seemed to be two approaches:
1. Warm up on Bb and then switch to Eb.
2. Start straight on Eb.
#2 was always the most popular as you didn't want to be carrying two instruments. I would sometimes warm up on Bb in the house before going to band. It helped a bit.
I would recommend spending some time with an experienced player. One of the main things is sound concept. Most modern soprano players are playing on very small;l shallow mouthpieces, which need a bit more warm up in my experience - but that might just be my lips.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
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Seymor B Fudd
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| GordonH wrote: | I played soprano cornet in First and Championship section for a few years. There seemed to be two approaches:
1. Warm up on Bb and then switch to Eb.
2. Start straight on Eb.
#2 was always the most popular as you didn't want to be carrying two instruments. I would sometimes warm up on Bb in the house before going to band. It helped a bit.
I would recommend spending some time with an experienced player. One of the main things is sound concept. Most modern soprano players are playing on very small;l shallow mouthpieces, which need a bit more warm up in my experience - but that might just be my lips. |
Just a comment on the use of small mouthpieces: as in big band scores range seems to have become expanded upwards these days. I had the opportunity (after a lifetime of wanting to) to attend the National (UK)Championsships at Royal Albert Hall in October and oh my!; the sopranopart many times above high C, up to E and that in difficult runs.
So I can understand the use of smaller mpc:s - personally I prefer somewhat deeper - the sound should be bright but not harsh, more lyrical/dolce, not "trumpetish", not like a piccolo, warm! (I may be an old romantic..)
Seemingly smaller Eflatcornets today. I used a Getzen Eb, rather big horn compared to the one our present sopranoman uses - a Schilke. I find it a very complex instrument, lots of resistance -difficult to play in tune;
And - concerning the psychic stamina needed playing the soprano; the horn itself can be tricky - and the need for front row cornets playing in more or less perfect pitch is in great demand - often there is, shall we say, a certain discrepancy -
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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GordonH
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Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2893
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | GordonH wrote: | I played soprano cornet in First and Championship section for a few years. There seemed to be two approaches:
1. Warm up on Bb and then switch to Eb.
2. Start straight on Eb.
#2 was always the most popular as you didn't want to be carrying two instruments. I would sometimes warm up on Bb in the house before going to band. It helped a bit.
I would recommend spending some time with an experienced player. One of the main things is sound concept. Most modern soprano players are playing on very small;l shallow mouthpieces, which need a bit more warm up in my experience - but that might just be my lips. |
Just a comment on the use of small mouthpieces: as in big band scores range seems to have become expanded upwards these days. I had the opportunity (after a lifetime of wanting to) to attend the National (UK)Championsships at Royal Albert Hall in October and oh my!; the sopranopart many times above high C, up to E and that in difficult runs.
So I can understand the use of smaller mpc:s - personally I prefer somewhat deeper - the sound should be bright but not harsh, more lyrical/dolce, not "trumpetish", not like a piccolo, warm! (I may be an old romantic..)
Seemingly smaller Eflatcornets today. I used a Getzen Eb, rather big horn compared to the one our present sopranoman uses - a Schilke. I find it a very complex instrument, lots of resistance -difficult to play in tune;
And - concerning the psychic stamina needed playing the soprano; the horn itself can be tricky - and the need for front row cornets playing in more or less perfect pitch is in great demand - often there is, shall we say, a certain discrepancy - |
E is just an A ....
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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bach_again
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
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Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| GordonH wrote: | | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | GordonH wrote: | I played soprano cornet in First and Championship section for a few years. There seemed to be two approaches:
1. Warm up on Bb and then switch to Eb.
2. Start straight on Eb.
#2 was always the most popular as you didn't want to be carrying two instruments. I would sometimes warm up on Bb in the house before going to band. It helped a bit.
I would recommend spending some time with an experienced player. One of the main things is sound concept. Most modern soprano players are playing on very small;l shallow mouthpieces, which need a bit more warm up in my experience - but that might just be my lips. |
Just a comment on the use of small mouthpieces: as in big band scores range seems to have become expanded upwards these days. I had the opportunity (after a lifetime of wanting to) to attend the National (UK)Championsships at Royal Albert Hall in October and oh my!; the sopranopart many times above high C, up to E and that in difficult runs.
So I can understand the use of smaller mpc:s - personally I prefer somewhat deeper - the sound should be bright but not harsh, more lyrical/dolce, not "trumpetish", not like a piccolo, warm! (I may be an old romantic..)
Seemingly smaller Eflatcornets today. I used a Getzen Eb, rather big horn compared to the one our present sopranoman uses - a Schilke. I find it a very complex instrument, lots of resistance -difficult to play in tune;
And - concerning the psychic stamina needed playing the soprano; the horn itself can be tricky - and the need for front row cornets playing in more or less perfect pitch is in great demand - often there is, shall we say, a certain discrepancy - |
E is just an A .... |
I presume Seymor is talking in Eb sop pitch... high Es are written in the sop pad, but rarely. This is very high writing for sop. (and for any brass instrument, realistically speaking). If he is hearing high E, Bb pitch, this is a B on sop and standard expected register.
I think you need to have a consistent D to play sop well. Above that is extremely rare. Many players can play far beyond this register, mind. I don't play sop much, but I can usually play up to high G on it. I use the Yamaha 8e2 or whatever came with it, and it is not that shallow. Still possible to make a pretty sound. When you force it... well... A few times I was able to play sop DHC. It's kinda like playing a flugel aggressively - it misses the point. When you listen to Peter Roberts or Steve Stewart you really get a sense of the potential beauty of the sound of this instrument. "lead sop" mentality is never pleasant to listen to.
Best,
Mike
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TKSop
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:36 am Post subject: |
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I think it's sad the state of soprano playing right now - too many overly shallow and tight pieces in use, too much nasal tone (which doesn't blend when you want/need it to), too much insecure production and so many players with no dynamics quieter than mp... Even in top section.
The range requirements of parts doesn't help, but there's still plenty of players that don't have reliable range above C... Even in top section.
But... There's a huge gap between the top of top section and the bottom of top section - probably a bigger gap than between an average 4th and 1st section band.
Sorry... On topic...
I never warm up on Bb first. Never.
A recent entertainment contest required me to play Bb trumpet for the opening piece - still warmed up on sop first, even at the contest venue.
I'd start in the middle of the range (around C-E in the staff) and work outwards slowly... A gentle melody or two is fine, but nothing above or below the staff. |
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GordonH
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | I think it's sad the state of soprano playing right now - too many overly shallow and tight pieces in use, too much nasal tone (which doesn't blend when you want/need it to), too much insecure production and so many players with no dynamics quieter than mp... Even in top section.
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Totally agree.
Most soprano cornet players I know are playing on mouthpieces far smaller than most piccolo trumpet players. Its quite interesting. I see a lot of 6a4a's. I think Yamaha supplied these with some soprano cornets. They supply 14a4x with their piccolo trumpets....
That top E is the same as the highest note in the Brandenburg concerto so its not totally ridiculous. I see a lot of people muscling in on those high notes. The best soprano player I have seen in recent years was a guy from Brighouse and Rastrick - he came to Scotland as trumpet masters student. He played on a Stork Vachianno cornet mouthpiece on soprano - a bit like a 3B. Great tone, great range. Not brittle sounding. He plays Bb with the top Norwegian band now.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Seymor B Fudd
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Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1472
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| bach_again wrote: | | GordonH wrote: | | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | GordonH wrote: | I played soprano cornet in First and Championship section for a few years. There seemed to be two approaches:
1. Warm up on Bb and then switch to Eb.
2. Start straight on Eb.
#2 was always the most popular as you didn't want to be carrying two instruments. I would sometimes warm up on Bb in the house before going to band. It helped a bit.
I would recommend spending some time with an experienced player. One of the main things is sound concept. Most modern soprano players are playing on very small;l shallow mouthpieces, which need a bit more warm up in my experience - but that might just be my lips. |
Just a comment on the use of small mouthpieces: as in big band scores range seems to have become expanded upwards these days. I had the opportunity (after a lifetime of wanting to) to attend the National (UK)Championsships at Royal Albert Hall in October and oh my!; the sopranopart many times above high C, up to E and that in difficult runs.
So I can understand the use of smaller mpc:s - personally I prefer somewhat deeper - the sound should be bright but not harsh, more lyrical/dolce, not "trumpetish", not like a piccolo, warm! (I may be an old romantic..)
Seemingly smaller Eflatcornets today. I used a Getzen Eb, rather big horn compared to the one our present sopranoman uses - a Schilke. I find it a very complex instrument, lots of resistance -difficult to play in tune;
And - concerning the psychic stamina needed playing the soprano; the horn itself can be tricky - and the need for front row cornets playing in more or less perfect pitch is in great demand - often there is, shall we say, a certain discrepancy - |
E is just an A .... |
I presume Seymor is talking in Eb sop pitch... high Es are written in the sop pad, but rarely. This is very high writing for sop. (and for any brass instrument, realistically speaking). If he is hearing high E, Bb pitch, this is a B on sop and standard expected register.
I think you need to have a consistent D to play sop well. Above that is extremely rare. Many players can play far beyond this register, mind. I don't play sop much, but I can usually play up to high G on it. I use the Yamaha 8e2 or whatever came with it, and it is not that shallow. Still possible to make a pretty sound. When you force it... well... A few times I was able to play sop DHC. It's kinda like playing a flugel aggressively - it misses the point. When you listen to Peter Roberts or Steve Stewart you really get a sense of the potential beauty of the sound of this instrument. "lead sop" mentality is never pleasant to listen to.
Best,
Mike |
Yes I meant E above the soprano high C - A above high C on Bb horns.
Played it three times in my youth, on my Selmer Eb/D trumpet. Standing in front of the band, "Holiday for strings" - starting with E G#B E; - nailing the E I almost fainted, sank to the floor kneeling, conductor thought funny and repeated it three times, me kneeling every time. The audience thought it was part of the show, I guess. I cursed him afterwards....
The soprano guy in the Cory band, also picked as the best musician played like a lead trumpeter, brilliantly of course but "too much" for my taste; there were many bands with sopranoplayers who played more with the band, more lyrical, more dolce.
I always thought that the purpose of the sopranopart was to add color to the sound of the band, to broaden the musical palette, add to the tonal spectrum. Sometimes front row and soprano parts coincide, like in Padstow Lifeboat - same range
But then I´m, in these respects, an oldfashioned guy. Some contemporary modern charts seem to stretch the range for all horns - bands in the upper league; hence the test piece of this year completely unplayable for bands like mine (yes I know, way too technical too, among other variables)
By the way: writing that I used to warm up on a Bb horn - if you are an advanced player, knowing your chops, by all means begin with the soprano - I wasn´t/will never be in that league!
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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