Bach Strad restoration in the UK

[Pete236]

Good evening all.

I've got a lovely Strad called Elisabeth (no idea why it's called that - the previous owner named it and insisted that I kept the name!)

There's a bit of a story here....

A chap in a brass band I played for gave me a ring, said he had dropped his trumpet and dented it. It was on loan from a friend of his, and if this friend knew it had been damaged, he would have been a bit annoyed.

The horn was in a bad shape anyway, with most of the lacquer missing, dings and dents all over it, it hadn't been cleaned in a decade or more!
I'm a reasonable instrument repairer, I'm capable of sorting dents and mechanical issues to a fair standard. I straightened out the bell damage and got the bell crook sitting back where it should, thankfully there was no other damage done by a 6" fall onto concrete! Gave it a quick clean out and tidy up but not too much.
I took it along to my Big Band to try it - and fell in love instantly!

I eventually managed to persuade the owner to sell it to me (he hadn't played in 10+ years) and thought I would tweak things a little. I altered the finger hook locations to suit me, likes up the water key location a little more precisely, but I couldn't do anything about the missing lacquer - I don't have any equipment for re-finishing and, as such, I've never learned how to do it properly!
For some reason - gawd only knows why - I took all the remaining lacquer off and gently 'brushed' the brass with wire wool to get a dull finish, then sprayed with automotive lacquer ... Instantly the horn changed totally. The sound and texture, intonation - all gone. I am still kicking myself!

I've recently started a great job and am getting a decent wage for the first time since I left school 15 years ago! I have enough cash saved that I can afford to get the Strad properly refinished (and I've learned and grown enough as a player to be able to justify spending that much on me)

I'm finally getting to the point of my post!!

My question is:

Can anyone recommend a repairer/restorer who will get my old Strad Bach into condition?
Should I send it back to the States for a factory refresh? Or is there someone in the UK who can do the job?

Any ideas and advice will be gladly received.

Pete.



Instrument is:

ML 325610 with reverse leadpipe, silver plated. Heavy bottom caps in silver, valve tuning slide legs in nickel.

[TKSop]

The UK scene is interesting and varied...

There are some truly superb repairers and manufacturers here. And there are some pretty awful ones with inexplicably decent reputations.

If it's a question of taking it to the best, then you're heading for the South-East - that's where you'll find Eclipse, Taylor and Will Spencer... The rest in the UK, IMHO, are a long way behind these three in quality.

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I think there are two different things you may want and it probably greatly affects the cost and possibilities:

1. Relacquer/refinish: should not be exorbitantly expensive and there has to be someone in the UK who can do that.
2. Restoration. This would be much, much more expensive, probably on the range of just buying another used Bach in better condition. It might include rebuilding valves, replating silver, adjusting receiver, etc.

I'm also confused by the silver/lacquer question. At the bottom of the post you say parts of the instrument are in silver or nickel. I don't believe silver/nickel should ever be lacuqered. Did you do that? If you liked the sound of it unlacquered, I would probably just remove the lacquer again and then save up for another instrument that looks more conventional (if you need that). If the instrument sat for a while, it may well be that everything but the finish is in good condition.

[Pete236]

Good evening, and thank you both for your replies.

TKSop - three great names and useful info, thanks very much indeed. I will draft an email to Will Spencer as he isn't too far from me, and see what he says. Apart from anything else, I would love to spend an hour in his workshop and see what he gets up to. It's always a pleasure to talk to and learn from someone who works to such high standards!

HaveTrumpet - I'm hoping that option 1 will be viable for the Strad, and that the sound differences are purely down to my atrocious attempt at refinishing. Although I am prepared to spend a reasonable amount to get it up to scratch, as I think the instrument is well worth it. (Of course it may be that I've changed as a player and the Strad isn't the instrument for me anymore!)

I wasn't really clear with my little postscript about the instrument, apologies.
The leadpipe and tuning slide were replaced in the 80's I think, so it has a reverse leadpipe and tuning slide in silver plate. The plate has all but worn off, so I lacquered the brass that is showing through the worn plate. The bright nickel finish on the tuning slide legs were lacquered as they all are, as nickel dulls with time. I did spray them with lacquer too, after removing the remnants of the original finish.

I need to look out my 'before' pictures, and take some current pictures which would show what I mean more accurately than I'm describing!

Thanks both for your input, it's much appreciated.

Pete.

[Winghorn]

Why not just get some paint stripper and take the horn back to raw brass, where it seemed to play well for you?

Some always disagree, but in my experience with dozens of classic instruments over the years, any overhaul, or even a re-lacquer has the potential to alter how an instrument plays and sounds. You found that out with your own re-lacquering attempt.

Lacquer can vary in hardness and thickness and dent repairs often require the dented areas to be annealed and softened with a torch. Even without annealing, moving metal around can change the original temper of the metal or create stress.

Notice I said potential, not certainty. Sometimes there are no changes but if you really like a horn, it is something to consider.

[Pete236]

Evening gents,

Winghorn - thanks for your input, much appreciated. It's been in my mind that I should just strip it off and see what happens - I'm close to doing just that!

I contacted Will Spencer and had a bit of an email chat. He was very helpful to start with, but his 1st port of call was to replace the lead pip and tuning slide with one of his own. I'm not too keen on that as I don't think that is the problem. As such, I've let that lie for now, as it seemed to be going in a direction that I wasn't convinced by. Will was dead helpful though and I'm very grateful for his time and input.

I've since been contacted by Leigh at Eclipse (after a Facebook post I made) and he has invited me down to Eclipse so he can have a look as he is intrigued, likes a challenge and wants to see if he can help. And he is refusing any kind of payment at the moment, he just wants the challenge!
I'm off to see him on Saturday.


Thanks again gents, I'll keep this updated if you are interested, and see how we get on.

[Retlaw]

Let us know how you get on and if you tried an Eclipse against the Bach.....
_________________
"Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice."

[TKSop]

Sounds like Leigh

You'll enjoy yourself, it's always great fun going there! And if anyone knows good finishing, it's Leigh.

[delano]

When I was on a quest like yours I got this adress from a well informed player:

http://www.mcqueens.com/brass_repairs.htm

I have no experience of my own but maybe others (like TKSop) know more.

[TKSop]

[delano]

[wee steve]

Leigh is the man, his knowledge is as good as anyone anywhere.

What I would say though is that Bach strads are Wills thing, I will always use Leigh as I respect him and love Eclipse trumpets but one of my old teachers got Will to rebuild his strad with a new leadpipe etc..it was a fantastic improvement. Don’t disregard either Leigh or will sticking new bits on your hooter it will sound great.

Let us know how you got on.
_________________
Eclipse Celeste MY 2023
B & S Challenger flugelhorn

Previous horns:
Eclipse Celeste CLS MY
Eclipse LY (rear tuned)
Bach ML37
B & S Challenger ii

[Pete236]

Evening all,

What a day that was!

I went into Eclipse this morning, not really expecting anything but looking forward to learning a lot.
Well, I've learned a huge amount and come away with a part-rebuilt horn, a head which is buzzing with thoughts and ideas, several options for going forward...and a burning, yearning desire to buy at least 2 trumpets, 2 cornets and a Flugel or 2, or 3. I need a lottery win and soon!!!

Leigh was with another customer for a little while, a family that had come up from Cornwall, so I just stooged around a little - which was a treat in itself as their workshop is fab, a real Aladdin's cave.

Leigh and Carl had a listen to my bugling, then looked at the Strad. Their 1st thought - the lacquer is too thick, so Carl stripped it off, washed the horn and we had another go.
Instant response, the sound was better, the high register was slotting in better and it was nearly back to its old self.

Leigh still wasn't convinced, so he had me try another Strad that was in after a p/x, from about the same year. The difference was amazing! The other Strad slotted in even better and was far more secure, although not such a rounded sound.

My Strad didn't look right so Leigh took some measurements and things weren't adding up. The bow of the main tuning slide was odd somehow, possible too long. (which is also why the horn was quite flat - something I only found at Christmas when I was trying to tune to a Church Organ!)

Leigh stripped the tuning slide down and then all was revealed - there was a mammoth gal between the end of the bow of the slide and end of the inner leg, interrupting air flow and causing all sorts of problems. The tube of the how is also a bit undersize on the O/D so it was sitting straight at all, and there was masses of solder that had flowed everywhere inside the tubing.
The leadpipe isn't Bach, neither is the tuning slide bow nor the top outer of the slide. The leadpipe was 5mm+ too short!

I'll cut the rest of the story down as I can't find the right way to describe everything. But Leigh and Carl repositioned the leadpipe to get the main tuning slide bow correct for alignment and movement. They removed all the manky, patchy silver plate from the leadpipe and polished it up, same with the tuning slide. They roughly polished the bell section, gave it a clean out and re-lube and then had me try it.
Wow!
What a transformation! It now outperforms the regular Strad in nearly all areas, it's a thousand times better than when i bought it (and it had a 'Wow' factor back then) and Leigh has brought the tuning up quite a decent bit so I now have some leeway on the main slide.

I am over the moon, and there is still more that can be done to tweak things depending on the direction I want to go. Both Leigh and Carl liked the horn though, said that the valves are good and that it has a nice dark, round tone which is unusual for a Strad.

Leigh and Carl couldn't have been nicer, super super guys, and I suspect that this is only my first visit of many, and I have a terrible feeling that I will be spending far too much money with them in the future!

Thanks guys!.
Pete.

[wayben]

Love it when a plan comes together!!! Enjoy your "new" horn.
Wayne