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jicetp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 990
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:57 pm Post subject: Where to put the mouthpiece ? |
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HI everyone,
Though the title may lead for some humourous answers ( I had some popping out in my mind when writing the title ) , it's a genuine question I have here.
I have always ( not always - for some time now - ) thought there is a ' sweet spot ' ' ideal place ' ' efficient position ' .....you name it, for the mouthpiece to be placed on our mouth .
So, I have been trying to find 'ways' to find this place and I want to know what you have done/do/advise regarding this very subject.
Here are the ' tools ' I used to/use to pinpoint the spot :
- have a ' small ' mouthpiece and try to get a sound with it. Even a hair of change of placement will make the sound happen or not.
-glide the mouthpiece on wet chops to see/hear when the sound is bigger/fatter/most resonant.
- hold the horn with thumbs only to allow the mouthpiece to go where it wants to ( allowing the ' pivot ' to change while playing )
- play ' burst tones '. similar ( to my understanding ) to Jeff Smileys snaps, or as seen in Pierre Thibaults method at the beginning. These happens when the mouthpiece is at a certain place ( for me )
As you can tell, I am not a proponent of : pu the moouthpiece on your lips, blow and let the air do the work.
I shall rather say :
Find the right spot for you, and then the air will do most-of -the-work.
If the ' valve ' is efficient/vibrates freely/responsive/gives great tone/allows for ppp/fff playing, then I am confident.
Curious to read what you gals/guys have to say on this topic
All the best
JiCe |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2117 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Interesting question indeed. I was taught to place it 50/50 on the upper and lower lips and to hold the horn straight. Playing big band like this for years; worked OK.
After returning from a twelve year break a while ago, I reset my embochure to become a more efficient player. Parts of the resetting included finding the optimum mouthpiece position.
Turns out, for me, that holding the trumpet at a downward angle rather than straight and moving the mp up to accommodate more of the upper lip works much better than the traditional position. I both get a much better, more resonant, sound and gained about five notes in the upper register because the top lip can vibrate much more. Plus, switching between trumpet, flugel, and bass trumpet has become so much easier. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:18 am Post subject: |
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You should place the mouthpiece in a position where you get the best vibration, and if this is a little off to the side, as it is with most players, then it would be wrong to place it right in the center. How high or low you place the mouthpiece does matter. Whether it is off to the side or in the center doesn't. While it is true that different trumpeters have played successfully in various position, most fine players have the mouthpiece high on the upper lip. Since the upper lip is more stationary of the two, you will develop a strong , secure feeling of placement.
This position allows for:
1. A freer vibration, since there is more lip in the mouthpiece to vibrate. Your upper lip is the main source of vibration.
2. More endurance, there being more ' cushion " between your mouthpiece and your teeth.
3. A bigger sound, because of the bigger vibration. _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1560 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I was tempted to say "just drop it down the bell of the trumpet and see if it works," but really want to answer your serious question.
Have you tried a mouthpiece visualizer? Working that around to different locations might give you some insight. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1826
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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solo soprano wrote: | While it is true that different trumpeters have played successfully in various position, most fine players have the mouthpiece high on the upper lip. |
I disagree with this as a generalization. If we look through the hickman book of some famous embouchures we see that in general, the inner rim doesn't isolate much past the red fleshy part of the upper lip and not much past the fleshy part of the lower lip or just a little into the red of the lower lip (in fact, Doc Severinsen has the most lower lip of all, aka the lowest setting). If you were to use a visualizer you would see this is probably the case for you as well. To say "high" on the upper lip could cause many to adopt an unnatural position.
There are no rules except don't try to play inside the red on the top lip.
jicetp, thanks for the interesting take on setting the mpc. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 911 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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It’s good to get used to consistently finding the “sweet spot” and make it automatic to play there. But also keep in mind over time things can change and is to be expected. In my case my lower teeth have moved around in the past 15 years and where I put my mouthpiece has also changed quite a bit. Not only that, but your lips can swell and are not the same each day depending on hydration, weather, and how much playing you are doing. I know I don’t set my chops the same every day, but I try to discover a sweet spot in “almost” the same spot every day. |
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mdarnton Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Posts: 122 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:42 am Post subject: |
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I am only 10 months in and tried multiple times to shift to my teacher's suggested 50/50 position, but I play better, wider range, easier, more in tune, with more upper lip in the cup so that's what I do. The difference is not subtle. I use the Farkas method to locate the spot quickly. It drops in just right that way, no indecision.
Also, I can play slightly to either side but not in the center. At this point which side is better varies day to day and I am not uncomfortable on either side and the average performance is equal. The hangy dollop in the center on my upper lip is largish and there is a natural hole on either side and my teeth form more of a point at the front, so center doesn't seal or move easily. I suppose one side will pull forward eventually, but a quick test reveals which is today's side. The cup settles in comfortably on its own on either side, no searching.
My range is to g or a above the top of the staff and going up fast enough, and lip slurs are coming fine, so I am not worried on those points. My main focus is on making it comfortable and easy, not blowing my brains out. When things are right with my cup position slurring a harmonic series of my range pops right out with little work and that's my best test. In general, the more relaxed I am the better things work. For me, my tone quality is more about keeping my lips loose rather than cup position and when it starts to go I have to loosen them up, not find a better spot.
I am not a great player but it's not a battle; just steady practice+work>reward and I am trying to bring everything up together and focus on whatever is weakest at the moment. |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Best mouthpiece placement depends on things like lip size and shape, dental structure, etc. What works for one person might not work for another with different physiology.
Your idea of using sound to find the sweet spot is a good one, but there's also training to think about. An untrained or poorly-trained embouchure won't sound good or be resonant no matter where you place the mouthpiece. Ideal placement will become more effective as the embouchure is well-trained with that placement using an effective method.
Effective training methods include sound production exercises designed to improve initial response, and flow studies to maintain a good sound across phrases. The Franquin method is great for this. Other good material for this are Shuebruk, Cichowicz, Stamp, and John Daniel, to name a few. Here's where a good teacher can help too, as you work through these materials. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1289
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | ...Your idea of using sound to find the sweet spot is a good one, but there's also training to think about. An untrained or poorly-trained embouchure won't sound good or be resonant no matter where you place the mouthpiece. Ideal placement will become more effective as the embouchure is well-trained with that placement using an effective method.... |
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