Mouthpiece Position...

Annie · Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:23 pm Post subject:

Hey, I got a Q...I'm sure most of us agree that the mouthpiece goes in the center, but should it be even or should there be more upper lip/more lower lip....or what? I'm guessing this is another one of those things that depends upon the player?
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~Annie

*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.*

JoseLindE4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791

Why does the mouthpiece have to go in the center?

valvepimp · Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:40 pm Post subject:

My own embouchure is centered and approximately 2/3rds lower lip to 1/3rd upper. This is often the natural tendency due to the lower lip being thicker than the upper in most players. I've had seven or eight teachers throughout the years, and none of them has ever suggested an embouchure change, and therefore I feel my setup is positioned for maximum efficiency. My lips are a bit on the thin side, so this helps me compress both lips securely inside the mouthpiece, even in the early days when I used the relatively small 7c. There are, however, lots of players who divide the lower and upper 50/50 and some even play more on the upper than the lower. I'd say it's whatever feels best to you and looks acceptable to your teacher.
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Annie · Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:22 pm Post subject:

The mouthpiece should go in the center of the chops (talking horizontally) because that is the best way to ensure an unobstructed as possible airflow. Any other way and you must redirect the airflow somehow within the mouth cavity.
_________________
~Annie

*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.*

shofar · Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:32 pm Post subject:

_dcstep · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:15 am Post subject:

Yeah, I agree totally with Rog. Horizontal center is not necessarily the best. Where's best for you will depend on things like your dental foundation under your lips and your lips strength. Many, if not most, players play off center.

Vertical placement is also an individual thing and can change over time. Since I've started working with Balanced Embouchure, I've closer to half and half, where I used to be more like 1/3 top and 2/3 bottom. Interestingly, I can now move all around vertically and not really impact my tone in the staff, my range and endurance is impacted and I'm moving toward finding the optimal setting for me.

Dave
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Bill · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:36 am Post subject:

My placement is not latitudinally centered either, mostly because of a bit of a "snaggletoothed" condition that would have been corrected by braces had I had them as a child. If I played perfectly "centered" I tear the daylights out of my right upper lip area.

The mouthpiece placement however IS centered in the best possible place for my dentition and chop musculature. It does have a tendency to float longitudinally a bit while I'm playing, moving more to a upper lip dependent position as I fatigue. I can feel it and correct it, and the movement actually seems to prolong the endurance factor for me.
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Bill Mirrielees
Wilmington NC

Wilmington Big Band
Artistry In Jazz Big Band
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roynj · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065

Annie,
You are correct in stating that this is one of those things that depends entirely upon the player. I've seen lots of great players with various degrees of OFF-center in both directions. I've seen people with lots of roll in, and those with almost none. Some players pucker, while others smile. Some play on a dry mp, and others require a moist mp. Some prefer gold, while others like silver plate on the mp. There are really no hard rules for what is "THE" best.

HJ · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:55 am Post subject:

Hi,

I would not worry a bit about this. It is kind of dangerous really. I was a great player and went to the Conservatory. There my teacher, a great classical player, told me that the mpc was too low on my lip, and that it should be about 50/50. So I had to make a dramatic change, and could not play for about two years.....But my mpc placement was higher. Now, about twenty years later I know better. I tell all my students to put it wherever it feels comfortable. Most people put it in the middle anyway, and if they don't... well, good for them.

Bert

Annie · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:07 pm Post subject:

Oh, cool. I had just figured that since that would give the best and most unhindered airflow that it would probably be the best - eh, guess I was pretty dang wrong.
_________________
~Annie

*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.*

No BS · Veteran Member Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 141

Check out a photo of Ray Mase playing. He sounds "ok" with a "strange" setup!

FlugelFlyer · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:07 pm Post subject:

Also check out Carl Fischer with Maynard's band among many others and as a solo artist. That guy has it all when it comes to jazz: improv, style, chops, and much else. The only thing keeping him out of a realm with Dizzy and Clifford I think is his young age. I definately think he is one of the most underlooked players today. Anyway, check out his setup, his mouthpiece practically sits on the corner of his face!!! He must have given educators heart-attacks when he was younger.
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Trumpet: Bach 180LR, 72 bell
Mouthpiece: Warburton 3XD/KT

musicemt · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 419

I have a problem with my vertical placement--my mouthpeice rim would hit about halfway in the red of my upper lip. My trumpet prof is changing my embouchure, and he is really advocating getting all the red of both lips inside the cup. When I can cram all that tissue into a Schilke 15B, it's like blowing air through a brick wall.

I have nothing but respect for my prof, but how vital is this? I'm getting good results from moving the rim just above the lip, so 1/2-2/3 of the upper lip is in the cup. Anybody got any advice?

Chaser · Veteran Member Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 441

Arban suggested 1/3 top, 2/3 bottom. Claude Gordon advocated 2/3 top, 1/3 bottom.
Placement is very, very individualised. Why is your prof changing your set-up? As a general rule if someone want to do a change for cosmetic purposes or "because that's the way it should be" RUN very fast from the guy. Any good teacher won't mind you asking/questioning why he is changing something in your playing, so make sure if you are going along with his changes you understand why AND agree. I think that a very common problem with instruction is that alot of instructors get into the "this works for me" or "this is what's generally accepted" mode and try to make some uneccessary changes. It's YOUR playing, so always question and understand what's going on (until you get to the point that you are your own best teacher.)

A lead player that I greatly admire once gave me the advice, "If it's natural AND it works, then it's the correct way."

I have made some casual observations and I think guys playing on larger diameter mouthpieces tent to gravitate towards the low setting, while guys playing on smaller, tighter mouthpieces tend to go high.

My $.02

JackD · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:53 am Post subject:

I think placement does make a difference.

I've recently changed my embouchure, and luckily for me I've been able to do it with a very good teacher. My previous placement was off to the right side and very low (into the "red" area), using a Bach 7C. My new placement is roughly 2/3 top 1/3 bottom, central, and using a bigger mouthpiece (Bach 1 1/4 C). I find that in the new setting I don't need to use so much pressure to go high, and by bottom register has opened up a lot (I never could play pedals at all before, and now I have got over an octave in the pedal register).

I changed because my old embouchure was giving me a lot of trouble in the high register (I was not confident above high C), and I had a lot of trouble with inconsistency.

SCtrumpet · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:59 am Post subject:

I think 2/3 top lip, and 1/3 bottom is a good guide but sometimes you have to fool around with that guide. You have to go with where you so your best. I play withe the 2/3 1/3 approach, and I play little to the right side of my mouth. Its all about where it is most comfortable and where you sound the best.

Sammy

musicemt · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 419

Thanks, guys. Chaser, to answer your question, my prof is having me change because he says he has had students who played in a similar fashion, and they had some long-term tissue damage as a result. That's the only reason I went along with the change, because I want to play for as long as I can. I gotta say, I have noticed a more resonant sound and improved endurance. The range is coming....I hope....

Thanks again for the insight!

voyage · New Member Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 4

I have read that there is only one rule when placing the mouthpiece. Don't play on the red part of the lips, because it's weaker than the white part. I played with braces few years and my setup moved up on the red and now my embouchure is totally broken: No endurance, inconstant sound,etc..

It doesnt matter how "wrong" your embouchure or whatever is if it sounds good and works. When it doesnt work, dont repeat mistakes: Make changes!

_dcstep · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:00 am Post subject:

JackD · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:53 am Post subject:

Dave, what do you mean by an "open" embouchure? I think this may the the problem I had, as I am very very conscious of tone, and have never really bothered with range. Do you mean playing with the lips slightly apart?