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weezintrumpeteer Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 365 Location: SF, Ca
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: The Bach Long Cornet (181) |
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You don't hear much about these, and they're (relatively) inexpensive.
I know the short cornets are far more popular around here, but I thought I'd ask about the long model. What different options did these have? Which ones played the best? How good are they?
I ask because I recently was remembering about a Bach long model that I played in high school. It was owned by the school (they had about 10 of them), and being 1st trumpet, I got to pick the one I liked best.
Now, it might be my rosy memory, but I can swear that it was the best playing instrument I have ever played (including all of the instruments I have now). I have such fond memories of that horn. I've offered to purchase it from them a few times, but haven't lately..perhaps I'll try again I have no idea what model it was or what options it had (bell, etc).
Anyway, impressions of these? Which is the one to get? _________________ '70 Selmer Radial
'70's Getzen Eterna Cornet
'47 Martin Committee Deluxe #3
'06 Monette B993 |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9372 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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I've played a couple nice ML ones with the 37 bell, one I borrowed back in the 70's for a couple months when I needed a good cornet and didn't have one. It was an early Elkhart and played like a dream, but the owner wouldn't sell it. I almost bought a large bore one (don't remember what bell was on it) back in the late 80's - it really played nice. It was a demo model that had some visible repairs and the store owner wouldn't come off the price enough. In general, I think a used Bach 181 cornet can be one of the best buys out there. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
Last edited by Dale Proctor on Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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I had one and played it daily for about 5 years back in the late 70s early 80s. Was a fabulous horn, I really wish I still had it.
Unfortunately, the parents decided a younger cousin need it for beginner band after I was off to college. The rest of the story is too painful to recount here again.
They are priced very well today, mostly because the BB crowd seems to think the shape of the wrap is more important than the mouthpiece that's used. To their detriment, and your benefit if you decide to go that way. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | I think a used Bach 181 cornet can be one of the best buys out there. |
Indeed!
If I'd found one just a bit lower in price, I would have gone that way instead of my Capri. _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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A great old pro in Orlando once told me, 'Everything you can do on a cornet you can do on a trumpet. But you can't do everything on a cornet that you can do on a trumpet'.
Whether you buy the whole of that statement as fact I think one can see where he comes from. How often do you see high note specialists playing a cornet? I've heard one, but it simply isn't common. And while high note range on a cornet isn't easy, sweet low tones on a trumpet are very obtainable. I think that's why the trumpet is a much more popular instrument today. And 'more popular' is accurate; check the resale on a nice trumpet and then check the resale on a nice cornet.
Really, the dollar cost of a cornet might be the single best reason to buy one. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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Bill Dishman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:55 pm Post subject: Bach Long Cornet |
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We also had a matched set of 10 Bach Long Cornets in high school (along with 2 Bach trumpets)
Chair placement pecking order determined who got which horn.
They were ML 37 bell silver plated cornets.
This was the first "real" cornet I had ever been able to use as family finances prevented me from obtaining a professional model horn up until this time.
I have a large bore long model 37 bell now in my collection. It is a different blow than the ones in high school.
The one "big" problem back in high school was that strange American transition of using cornet shank mps that were really just trumpet cups/rims and not the traditional cornet mps with "V" cups or similar designs.
As I was just a kid, I never knew this until much later.
All I knew was that our band sounded great with these cornets. (My personal opinion is that they were easier to handle and play well by high school kids from top to bottom.) I often wonder what the band would have sounded like if we had used traditional cornet mps.
Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida
(Fort Hunt High School
Fairfax County, Virginia 1971-75) |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9372 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:46 am Post subject: |
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JonathanM wrote: | A great old pro in Orlando once told me, 'Everything you can do on a cornet you can do on a trumpet. But you can't do everything on a cornet that you can do on a trumpet'.
Whether you buy the whole of that statement as fact I think one can see where he comes from. How often do you see high note specialists playing a cornet? I've heard one, but it simply isn't common. And while high note range on a cornet isn't easy, sweet low tones on a trumpet are very obtainable. I think that's why the trumpet is a much more popular instrument today. And 'more popular' is accurate; check the resale on a nice trumpet and then check the resale on a nice cornet.
Really, the dollar cost of a cornet might be the single best reason to buy one. |
I think the old pro was limited in what his idea of "everyting" is. I'll disagree with your post for the following reasons...While I agree that high register playing is generally easier on a trumpet, the difference is small when using the same mouthpiece on a cornet. Also, some trumpets (and cornets) are better suited to upper register playing than others. And, while there are exceptions, the folks who produce a beautiful cornet-like tone on trumpet aren't high-note specialists and are using a large cup mouthpiece. For general, all-around playing, I think a proficient player could use either instrument with the appropriate mouthpiece and do well. It's when we get into the more specialized types of playing (screaming trumpet vs. British brass band, for example) that one instrument will win out over the other. Cornets aren't as popular as trumpets, but I see that as a result of the widely held belief that the cornet is a beginner's instrument and when you're ready, you "step up" to a trumpet. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I blame this thread for my latest case of n+1 disorder.
I found a nice early elkhart long bach cornet for sale by a TH member, and after being reminded yet again of how much I used to like my old one from a similar time period.
Should be here in a few days.
Probably not the textbook solution for brass band use, but I'll wager with a good curry mouthpiece in it, it'll sound a lot more like it should than a shepherd's crook horn with a 7c in it. Besides, I normally play flugelhorn in BB anyway.
I have more cornets than trumpets on hand, which is a good thing. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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weezintrumpeteer Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 365 Location: SF, Ca
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all of the replies. I'm tempted to try one again, but I'm not sure. I wish there was like...a repository for old instruments that you could go to and just play...instead of having to buy and resell if you don't like it
Whenever I purchase an instrument, I always have a hard time selling it whether I love it or not
I'm still looking for opinions on ML vs L bore, bell choice, etc. Also, anyone know how it compares to the other Bach cornet, the 184? Sound, playability, etc? _________________ '70 Selmer Radial
'70's Getzen Eterna Cornet
'47 Martin Committee Deluxe #3
'06 Monette B993 |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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The ML bore was far and away the most popular, especially in the "long" cornet version. I think some of the BBB players that use Bach 184's favor the larger bore sizes in some cases, but I think even there the ML is still the most common bore size.
Nobody can tell you in writing how either of them play, or how they sound relative to each other in a way that will resonate with you personally. Words simply aren't adequate to describe such things.
Like it or not, you'll have to try them out for yourself, or take your chances with a long distance purchase.
I'm not sure how long of a drive it would be for you from Milwaukee, but if you're really agonizing over this, a trip to the Bach plant should be on your todo list. Get ahold of them in advance of when you want to do it, and tell them you'd like to sample a few of each model. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9372 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:58 am Post subject: |
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Hey Randy - congrats on the new cornet! I play a large bore 184, but if I were looking for a 181, I'd probably go with the ML bore 37 too. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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a.kemp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2008 Posts: 678 Location: NYC
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Check the Marketplace later.....there will be a Bach 181 model listed. mL bore, 37 bell. 70's vintage with Malone and Landress tweaks.....great price, too! |
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RNJTrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2009 Posts: 398
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:22 am Post subject: |
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I picked up a 1970 181 from a TH'er about a year ago - needed some bell work, but the compression was excellent. I had the bell stripped, straightened and played it side by side for a few months against my modern cornets. I felt the tone, response, and ease of play was the best of the bunch - I ended up selling all my cornets and kept the Bach.
My main horn is a Bach 37 - also from the 70's - I'll say this, even with the same mouthpiece (minus the shank difference), the 181 still sounds like a cornet. I used it last summer just for the fun of it with my community band - didn't blend too well, but sounded real sweet on solos and Bugler's Holiday with another cornet player in our group.
If you can find an early Elkhart, they are a great cornet usually at a great price. |
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weezintrumpeteer Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 365 Location: SF, Ca
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. Sounds like these are better horns than I thought. I'll have to see if I can play a few before I decide if I want one again... _________________ '70 Selmer Radial
'70's Getzen Eterna Cornet
'47 Martin Committee Deluxe #3
'06 Monette B993 |
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lgt0412 Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2012 Posts: 462 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 1972 Strad "long" cornet. ML with 37bell. Paid $100 for it and it was probably one of the best $100 I've ever spent!!!
Greg
_________________________
2005 Kanstul 1600 "WB"
1958 Conn Connstellation 38B
1957 Olds Recording
2008 Bach Strad 197 "New York #7"
1998 Benge 90C
2003 Yamaha "Bobby Shew" Flugelhorn
1972 Bach Strad cornet
1956 Olds Ambassador cornet
Bach 3Cs all around!! |
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Mark Bradley Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 1149 Location: Kansas City
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:43 am Post subject: |
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I've got a New York Bach long model (don't know if they called it the 181 in 1950) with a ML bore and 37 bell. It's in great shape. By coincidence I pulled it out just this weekend and was noodling around on it. My first thought was "Why don't I play this horn more often!?" Bach cornets are really fine instruments and while I don't play this cornet as often as I'd like because everyone else is always playing on trumpet this long model cornet is a good "in betweener" from a "legit" style cornet (i.e. a Jupiter 1220/RL I have) and the trumpet. In other words I think I could get away playing this Bach long model in a trumpet section now and then with no problem. It projects more like a trumpet but also has more mellow cornetish sound. But the one thing that one realizes with this horn that with the added resistance and cornet wrap they just don't soar in the high range (such that it is) and project like a trumpet. Harder to play high notes. So unless you're Warren Vache or Bobby Hackett you're probably better off continuing to use the trumpet as one's main horn but the long model Bach is certainly a nice tool to have in the tackle box. |
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oxleyk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Kicking an old thread. I bought a mid-70s 181ML on eBay a couple weeks ago and it's quickly becoming my favorite noisemaker. The sound is very nice and with a Bach 3C mouthpiece it blends well with the trumpets in my community band. It also responds well to various other cornet mouthpieces.
Did Bach ever make these with a 72 bell? How would that affect the sound?
Kent |
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Tom K. Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 483
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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check out Jon Faddis playing Bix's Bach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxgaa2qjI5s _________________ "At the round earth's imagined corners, blow
Your trumpets, angels" -John Donne
50s Olds Ambassador
70s Yamaha 738
80s King 650 flugel
90s Bach 184 cornet
90s Bach Strad 37
10s Carolbrass 5060 C trumpet
10s Schilke B5 trumpet |
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rockford Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 2477 Location: Northern VA
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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oxleyk wrote: | Kicking an old thread. I bought a mid-70s 181ML on eBay a couple weeks ago and it's quickly becoming my favorite noisemaker. The sound is very nice and with a Bach 3C mouthpiece it blends well with the trumpets in my community band. It also responds well to various other cornet mouthpieces.
Did Bach ever make these with a 72 bell? How would that affect the sound?
Kent | You can get one with a 72 bell. I've seen some older horns with the 72 added later too. It's a great cornet bell. _________________ Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190. |
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cornet74 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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for me, this topis of 181s is interesting. Someday, I'll probably wind up with an ML/37. But for now I have an Bach 300 which is the ML/37 in a student horn. I like it but its very tight; although, when used with a Curry 5DC or better, a 5VC (both short shank) it opens way up and is easier to play.
But the other horn I have is a Mercedes II from about 1970 (a 60XXX see. #) This horn is all but the "real thing" with two piece vave casings, lots of nickle/silver, and a one piece bell that is, by mute measurement, a 37 and has the Strad. signature.
I know there is a lot of contoversey about the Mercedes II being a "playable" horn. It is for me and I've used it on quiet gigs behind singers or in a duo setting. In the above cases, I used a Wick 3B with good results.
My main cornet is a Yam. 6330IIS which I love, and even more than my Sov. 921 LB 1983, which I "gave" to a friend on long term loan.
Still, I'm going to want the real article someday…I think.
If anyone has any info about those older Mercedes II corents I'd appreciate it. With a mute, it appears the M. II bell is a tad smaller than the 300. But Bach was never known for consistency, even during Bach's days.
I suspect the Artisianal version is just great.
I'm taking a break form practicing and its the M.2 I'm playing as I've had a long 9 week lay off and playing both the Tenor horn a lot and now incorporating the cry. back into the game. I'm sure, soon, the trpt. will make it back on my face again…
Again, any addtional info on the M.2s would be appreciated.
Best,
crt.74 _________________ Now:
Yamaha 203 Tenor Horn
Bach, Wick, Yamaha Mouthpieces
Wick Wooden Tenor Horn Straight Mute |
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