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Beginner mouthpiece



 
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Soonerman
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:38 pm    Post subject: Beginner mouthpiece Reply with quote

Hey all, I’m new to the group, this is my first post and I’m sure it’s been discussed many times. I played trumpet in high school in the late seventies/early eighties. I played on the standard Bach 7C and later a Bach 10 1/2CW. Fast forward to today and I have a grandson playing trumpet in the 5th grade. I bought him a Bach student trumpet and it came with the 7C. He has no problems slotting the low notes and can hit a pedal C but struggles getting above a mid-staff C. I recently watched a video put out by Kurt Thompson stating that, in his opinion, a Bach 3E is the way to go, even for beginners, and is a superior choice for an ‘all-around’ mouthpiece. What are the thoughts of the group? Secondly, for myself, I was thinking on getting a Bach 3s or a 3MV. Does anyone have experience with either of these two?
Thanks to all.
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omelet
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recommend that he gets a trumpet teacher and to do what they say.
Kurt Thompson (and any other Youtube "personalities" in general) should be viewed (or not viewed, in my opinion) with skepticism.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read what Jens Lindeman says under Shifty's post. Also, compare Kurt Thompson with Jens Lindeman and draw your own conclusion.

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23
:41:49 EDT
From: JLindem96@aol.com
Subject: [TPIN] Jens Lindemann mouthpiece

I have received many e-mails from TPIN members who were at the ITG conference asking the classic "what-mouthpiece-do-you-use" question. I thought I would take this opportunity to give you my personal theory on mouthpieces.

I believe that far too many trumpet players use mouthpieces that are basically too big. IMHO, going larger than a Bach 3C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 14c4 or smaller than a Bach 7C or Yamaha/Schilke 11 should be considered 'specialized' equipment.

We seem to have no shortage of trumpet players out there who would say that very small mouthpieces are considered 'cheaters'. Have you ever seen a Bill Chase mouthpiece? It is about as small as you can possibly get and it served him very well for the type of playing he did. Could he have done that on a larger mouthpiece? Of course, but specialized lead players are artists in their own right. Those who do it for a living are very cognizant of what they are hired to do in the most efficient manner possible so that they can continue to do it for as long possible!

True lead players are also extremely rare. Think about how many people in your own community would be considered monster lead players...specifically the so-called 'screech' players. You would probably come up with a relatively small number in any given city. I can also virtually guarantee you that those inviduals play on more 'specialized' equipment that probably falls out of a standard industry medium. In my opinion, you should only mess around with their type of equipment if you were interested in the type of air velocity that they themselves use for their specific job.

Remember though that everything comes with a price. Extremely small, shallow mouthpieces simply do not resonate that well in a section. They may have good 'cutting' projection but try playing softly with a good attack...very risky. Of course, if you never have to play softly with a good sound then you should consider yourself a true specialist...go for it!

By the same token, the great orchestral players use equipment that would hover around a Bach 1 1/2 or 1C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 16-18C4. These individuals should also be considered 'specialists' because they are. Playing in an orchestra requires the ability to blend first and foremost and occasionally lead the entire brass section. But even then, the best players are simply riding on top of overtones being laid down by the rest of the section. They are not trying to 'cut' through in the way that commercial trumpet players might want to sizzle over a big band or rock group.

I just finished playing with the Summit Brass this week. Allen Vizzutti, Allan Dean and David Hickman were also in the trumpet section. Playing with them was AMAZINGLY easy because everyone blended and played in tune and everyone occasionally had the opportunity to lead the section and lay down a style that the others would follow. When the section is in tune and balanced, it is very simple to play for long periods of time without feeling true fatigue.

It is my understanding that the great Bud Herseth began his career on something like a Bach 7C and only switched to a larger mouthpiece (Bach 1X...made for him) after his car accident so that there was greater sensation in his nerve-damaged lips. Obviously, Bud Herseth is one of the greatest orchestral players ever but his own switch to a large mouthpiece (largest ever at the time) was based on an extreme situation for a highly specialized job. However, since most classical players wanted to sound like him, many made the same switch without thinking of the potential ramifications.
Specifically, working too hard to find the sweet spot...more on that later. Bud Herseth is one the most efficient players of all time and he was efficient on a Bach 7C for a long period.

Thus, the point of my ramble (I think I'm jet-lagged). EFFICIENCY!!! After starting on a Bach 7C like many of you out there, I graduated to bigger equipment...all the way to a Bach 1 1/4, 24 throat, Schmidt backbore. I love stats...it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players. So, now that we are alone, I can tell you about my realization. Unless I wanted to be Bill Chase, there was little point in playing through a pin hole. By the same token, it also seemed reasonably logical that unless I was recovering from nerve damage and needed to feel more of my lips so that I could play for Fritz Reiner in Chicago, I probably wouldn't need a 1X either.

Allen Vizzutti and I have discussed this often over the years and the simple fact is this, in order to play efficently you must be in the sweet spot of a mouthpiece. A large mouthpiece has a bigger sweet spot and, as with oversized tennis racquets and golf clubs, it helps compensate for our very human ability to miss the centre of the note more often than not. To accomplish the same goal on a smaller mouthpiece you MUST be more efficient or it will back up on you. I describe backing up as basically trying to overpower the sweet spot.

Currently, I am playing a GR mouthpiece which Gary Radtke made especially for me. This will be available very soon (complete with my website on it...the benefits of customization!). For years before that, my own equipment was made for me by a mouthpiece maker in Japan who worked for Yamaha. I don't know the exact dimensions but they are somewhere between a Bach 5-7 C or a Yamaha/Schilke 11. Never measured the throat or the backbore and I didn't really care because it basically got me to where I needed to be. I could pretty much do everything I needed to do in any register I needed to play in with that mouthpiece. Could it have been a more perfect mouthpiece? Of course! Will I obsess about trying to find an elusive solution? Of course not!

The answer is fluid anyway due to the fact that my body, lips, dental structure, and vital capacity will always be changing naturally due to the aging process that everyone of us is undergoing as I write this. Now, if your thing happens to be the quest for the perfect mouthpiece, then at least be honest with yourself, it is the chase that you are into and not the solution.
The bottom line is this (again, IMHO) the name of the game is efficiency and flexibility and the best solution for an all-around game is middle of the road equipment coupled with focused, intelligent practise. Have fun experimenting but don't let it be the answer to your problems!
Jens Lindemann

www.trumpetsolo.com
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would consider a 3E too shallow a mouthpiece for a beginner. It's a specialized piece - maybe for lead players or piccolo playing. It might be the right mouthpiece for someone at some point in the right application, but I would not start on it.

It's having a teenager learn to drive on a Dodge Viper or a Model T or a Japanese superbike when they've never rode a motorcycle before. Maybe it'll be fine, but frankly, it's unnecessary.

I am familiar with were you got the recommendation for this mouthpiece - he is well known on this site. I would find a different and better source of information for learning the trumpet.

A 3MV is a interesting mouthpiece with a V cup, medium depth. I'm not familiar with a Bach 3s, but if you mean a 3 (with no letter), that's a very deep cup and probably not ideal for a beginner. I wouldn't wander too far into the depths of mouthpiece catalogs for a beginner and both these pieces are deep tracks, so to speak.

Jen's thoughts on mouthpieces are great. I would further add that, after teaching beginner band among many things for almost 2 decades, usually the specific mouthpiece someone starts on isn't very important as long as it's not too big, too small, too deep, or too shallow (the 3E is quite shallow). I think a 3C would work just fine. The common 7C is fine for a starter mouthpiece - a bit deeper than I'd like, but frankly quite serviceable. I quite like the Yamaha 11C4's that come with student Yamaha instruments. It's a better version of a 7C, in my opinion - less deep, friendlier rim.

If you want specific recommendations - Yamaha 11C4, Bach 3C, or Yamaha 14B4 or 14C4 (similar to a Bach 3C or so, maybe slightly smaller).

But, like I said I don't think it matters much. I've started kids on 3C's, 5C's, 1 1/2C's (because that's what was in the case) lots of 7C's, random UMI mouthpieces like King 7M's or Conn 4's (those might be pre-UMI), Yamaha 11C4's...

... and usually the only thing that matters is if the student is practicing and is playing with passable (or better, hopefully) technique.

Players and parents fall in to the trap of trying to "fix" things with better stuff. Why do you think many trumpet players have dozens of mouthpieces. Sometimes, the real answer is just to keep practicing. No mouthpiece really makes anyone better or solves issues like range - mostly they might just compliment how you play better than a different mouthpieces.
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Masterplayer1000
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point your son needs to just develop his playing embrosure. That thing about mouthpieces is that there is a formula to them. The deeper the cup the more your lips need to work and its slightly harder to hit high notes in exchange for your tone to sound nice without tweaking it too much. If you play on a shallow mouthpiece you will hit high notes easier and your lips will not get tired as easly but your embrosure needs to make more adjustments to have an open and full sound. Thats why i believe that all beginner students should start on a 7C because it is just the right size for your kid to work on their embrosure and lips at the same time. Where as if you picked a very deep or shallow cup their playing will get compromised. I played on a bach 3 which is a very deep cup. When i switched back i realised my tone on trumpet overall was awful. Your son just needs to practice and after 2-3 years either go to a store where they let you test mouthpieces or buy a few sizes of mouthpiece to test prowinds.com has a good return policy where you can buy 10 mouthpieces and you get a i think 90 day trial period to return it for full price ( minus a restocking fee) but for now your kid needs to practice. Do range exercises or lip slurs.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"embrasure" . . must . resist . . . .
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:45 pm    Post subject: beginner mouthpiece Reply with quote

Lots of good advice for you in here already. Kehaulani putting the Jens Lindeman string is wonderful. I read a different by Jens that talks about moderation in choosing a size for experienced players and I have picked up the horn again after many years off and struggled with this. I never had a bunch of mouthpieces I played on a Bach 1C from age 13 until in my forties, with some experimenting on a shallow 10 3/4 EW Bach and a couple Jet Tones. The Bach was for everything though. I have had a 3c and a 5c since starting back up and struggled with lower register with both those pieces. It is me, of course, but I questioned the mpc. A friend of mine who collects brass trumpets and horns said he had played a Bach 5b for a while. The day after his email I found a used Bach 5b in the marketplace for 20 bucks and have that. It was just enough deeper to help with the lower register. Jens Lindeman has other topics you can see I think on YouTube. Read what Kehaulani put up here, it is invaluable.
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Soonerman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All great replies. I’ve decided to get my grandson a Bach 3c Megatone. He can experiment between it and the 7c he already has and see which one suits him best. I was reluctant to purchase a 3e as I thought it too shallow for young chops but evidently I was temporarily sucked in by, albeit a good trumpet player, a YouTube personality with an opinion. For myself, I picked up a 3MV. My grandson taking up the trumpet has inspired me to become a comeback player.
Thank you all for the fine advice and taking time to counsel with a ‘has been’ musician. 😂
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soonerman wrote:
... . I’ve decided to get my grandson a Bach 3c Megatone. He can experiment between it and the 7c he already has and see which one suits him best. ...

----------------------------------------------------------
The KEY item is EMBOUCHURE, not the mouthpiece (as long as the mpc fit / feel is reasonable). The ones you mention should be fine.

Beginning instructions should be on how to form the lips, teeth, jaw, etc. in a manner that will work now and for YEARS to come.
Critical items are that the lip must be able to vibrate, and it must have enough tissue support to not be injured.

Don't 'stretch' the lips like a rubber band to play higher notes. That will cause injury.
Don't 'muscle' the mouthpiece rim into the lips to force high pitch squeaks. At some point that will completely STOP the lip from being able to vibrate, or cause injury.

There is a LOT of info here on TH about how to achieve a good embouchure.

Jay
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krell1960
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner mouthpiece Reply with quote

[quote="Soonerman"]Hey all, I’m new to the group, this is my first post and I’m sure it’s been discussed many times. I played trumpet in high school in the late seventies/early eighties. I played on the standard Bach 7C and later a Bach 10 1/2CW. Fast forward to today and I have a grandson playing trumpet in the 5th grade. I bought him a Bach student trumpet and it came with the 7C. He has no problems slotting the low notes and can hit a pedal C but struggles getting above a mid-staff C. I recently watched a video put out by Kurt Thompson stating that, in his opinion, a Bach 3E is the way to go, even for beginners, and is a superior choice for an ‘all-around’ mouthpiece. What are the thoughts of the group? Secondly, for myself, I was thinking on getting a Bach 3s or a 3MV. Does anyone have experience with either of these two?
Thanks to all.[/quote]

Soonerman,
I am in the "smaller is better camp", i like Jens, think many people struggle because they are playing pieces that are too big for their lip and mouth structure. A 5th grader doesn't even have a fully developed mouth as far as teeth and jaw bones, etc. so trying to find the correct mouthpiece size for him can be difficult, that's why so many people start kids off with the 7C, its kind of in the middle range in diameter. does your grand son have a similar mouth structure to yours? Why did you go smaller in High School, do you have small thin lips, does he? There are so many things that need to be asked. Does your grandson know how to take a proper breath and let it go? If he can play pedal C with a good sound but can't play middle C, it sounds like he doesn't have enough lip tension to be able to maintain his embouchure position to achieve the middle C, basically he's playing on "horse lips". If i were in your shoes i would find him a comfortable mouthpiece, Bach 7 c's are not comfortable to me, I like Curry's, but thats just me, then after getting something that is comfortable to his lips, work on some leadpipe playing Ala , Bill Adam. When he can play the lead pipe with a nice resonant sound, check out Matt Anklans sound files on his website for examples of the correct sound, he should in short order be able to move up the scale on his trumpet. Be patient with him, 5th grader is really young, and needs positive encouragement and realistic goals. A great teacher is always a plus.

good luck,

Tom
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soonerman, for the future, you might want to know that the Bach 7C is a little too sharp on the lips for many, while alternatives which have basically the same dimensions but a more friendly rim, are the Schilke 11 or the Yamaha TR-11C4.

And BTW, Jens does not subscribe to smaller is better. He says mouthpieces between a Bach 3C and Bach 7C may be better. A Bach 7C is not small, just Jen's small-side limit for general use. There are scads of mouthpieces smaller than that.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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krell1960
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kehaulani"]Soonerman, for the future, you might want to know that the Bach 7C is a little too sharp on the lips for many, while alternatives which have basically the same dimensions but a more friendly rim, are the Schilke 11 or the Yamaha TR-11C4.

And BTW, Jens does not subscribe to smaller is better. He says mouthpieces between a Bach 3C and Bach 7C may be better. A Bach 7C is not small, just Jen's small-side limit for general use. There are scads of mouthpieces smaller than that that, that he does [i]not [/i] recommend for beginners.[/quote]

Yes, i miss quoted Jens, sorry about. I personally think smaller is better, but i play the very small ID stuff so i'm a bit partial to them and IMHO think starting kids a little smaller than the "perceived norm" may be helpful to some. But i'm no expert, Thanks for that correction Kehaulani !

Tom,

After recreating my login My Quotes don't work right anymore
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krell1960 wrote:
...
After recreating my login My Quotes don't work right anymore ...

------------------------
make sure the
'Disable BBCode in this post'
is NOT checked.

And also that the
"BBCode is ON"

Jay
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The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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krell1960
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
krell1960 wrote:
...
After recreating my login My Quotes don't work right anymore ...

------------------------
make sure the
'Disable BBCode in this post'
is NOT checked.

And also that the
"BBCode is ON"

Jay


here's a test!

tom

Thanks Jay for the help !! Much appreciated

t
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jscahoy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner mouthpiece Reply with quote

Soonerman wrote:
I recently watched a video put out by Kurt Thompson stating that, in his opinion, a Bach 3E is the way to go, even for beginners, and is a superior choice for an ‘all-around’ mouthpiece.

Wow, I've never heard anyone else say such a thing. As others have said, a 3E is very shallow and not appropriate for all playing situations. A 7C is perfectly fine for beginners. If he has trouble playing above tuning C, the problem is not the mouthpiece. It's that he's a fifth grader and needs more practice.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though I play on a variation of a Bach 1C mouthpiece and rim, and have for the last 45+ years, when my son started at age 11, I got him Bach 3C even though my first mouthpiece was Bach 7C (a Mount Vernon which I still have). He currently is on tour and his mouthpiece of choice is the same basic inside diameter as the 3C.

While my rim of choice is a variation of the 1C, I use several different cups/backbores as the situation requires. I do, however, agree with Jens Lindemann that bigger is not always better. Just because a large inside diameter works for me, doesn't mean it will work for others. I do disagree with Kurt Thompson. A 3E is a specialized mouthpiece and is not the best choice for a beginner. The 3C or even a 5C is a much better choice.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems few realize that Bach makes a variety of mouthpieces other than the 3C, 5C, and 7C.
There are the 6, various 8 sizes and the 9 series. There are some gems in those series, but they are not carried by enough stores for players to try.
R. Tomasek
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markwu071
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like many people say, there is no clear cut definition of a "beginner" mouthpiece. I advise going to your local instrument shop and asking them to try a bunch of different mouthpieces to see which one you like the best. Most people start off on the typical 3, 5, or 7 rims. I personally started on a 10-1/2c because I liked the rim and how easy it was to play in all registers. I have since moved up to a 1-1/2c.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I respectfully suggest that a rim contour that works with a student's tooth alignment is the first priority.

If there is a sharp red line on the lips after playing, pressure is not being evenly distributed. The position of the high point of the rim can make all of the difference.
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