Piston vs Rotary

tromba mann · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:08 pm Post subject:

Why does there seem be a convention to play rotary trumpets for German and other 18th and 19th Century music?

A rotary trumpet does not have any more justification vis-à-vis "authenticity" than the piston trumpet.

If a player wants to use a truly natural trumpet for Mozart et. al. to blend with the gut strings etc. to be a part of an "Academy of Ancient Music" style group, that is great. But to reflexibly use a rotary trumpet to be "authentic" for anything "Early" or "German" is a musicological abortion.

Playing what modern German player uses does not authenticate that instrument for use for all music of that nation's artistic production.

We need to separate the use of instruments by particular nationalities with the instruments that are authentic for particular genres of music. There is NO musicological justification for the use of rotary trumpets for Mozart or Haydn.

The rotary is just another way to change crooks in a hurry (or play chromatically), just like piston trumpets. What makes them dark are the bores and the mouthpieces, not their old world magic or rotary action.

Ahem....now...challenge me in a musicologically grounded discussion...cite sources please!!

[ This Message was edited by: Tromba Mann on 2003-12-21 00:09 ]

valvepimp · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:40 pm Post subject:

Your point is logical. Do German orchestras that play rotary trumpets exclusively switch to piston trumpets when they play Copland or Gershwin or Vaughn-Williams?
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trumpetmike · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:09 am Post subject:

Before we venture into the world of "musicologically grounded discussion" can I ask you whether you play rotary valve instruments a lot?

I know I could look through all the other rotary valve threads that are currently running, but I've only just woken up and it's too much like hard work

I have a feeling this could be an interesting discussion, I am definitely interested in the opinions on this, especially from players in different countries - some of which have got very long musical traditions to draw experience from.

trumpetgeek234 · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:22 am Post subject:

Actually, I have never seen a German orchestral trumpeter use a piston Bb or C in orchestra. As far as I know, German trumpeters use rotarys exclusively.

JackD · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:49 am Post subject:

I saw someone from the Berlin Phil playing a piston picc - can't remember where, but I think in a prom.

As someone who has never played a rotary, what are the advantages of them?

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888

Trombamann, you made some valid points. It has become quite fashionable to play rotary trumpets on the classical rep. I guess a few famous players started doing it, and many people have followed in their footsteps. Conductors also tend to like them, and many are convinced that they sound better. For them it is a matter of seeing that you are using one, regardless of whether they sound brighter, or darker, better or worse.

Of course using a piston trumpet is no more "correct" than using a rotary on the classical works. I used to really dislike playing rotary trumpets, but I have managed to find a decent one, and now I don't mind playing them so much.

I would say that the more trumpets available in your arsenal, the more flexibility that you have in terms of sound, and easy of playing. Once there are rules, then that flexibility becomes limited. Whatever works, regardless of how strange the trumpet may be, is what I would use.

valvepimp · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:30 am Post subject:

Irving - what is the brand name of the "decent one" you have found? What are some of its playing characteristics that cause it to be decent?
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Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888

VP,

I bought a Yamaha rotary C on Ebay. Maybe I like it because it blows like a Bach C. It is well in tune, even, and has a good sound. A while ago I used to play on a Lechner, but I didn't really care for it. Also had a Ganter in Bb, but didn't like that horn either. The Yamaha might be a sleeper since people who want to buy a rotary want a German or an Austrian horn.

MannyLaureano · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:30 pm Post subject:

For my part, anyone that knows me knows that I can't stand playing those G-d-forsaken instruments. They are unstable, out of tune and only "blend" with the other instruments in the orchestra because the sound is so dispersed. I wish today's conductors in this country would get off of this kick for, as has been mentioned, there is no musicological justification for playing them. There is, however, a tradtion that has lasted for years in Europe and conductors in this country have bought into it because , of course anything that is European is superior to whatever we do or think here, isn't that right?
We Americans have wonderful technical precision and ability but , naturally, we're clueless about music, isn't that right?

So, find yourself a recording of anything with a German orchestra and listen to it on bended knee.

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888

If we were to take a fine European player from Central Europe, used to playing a rotary trumpet, and hand him (or her, don't want to be politically incorrect here), he will sound very similar to the way he sounds on his rotary! That is the irony of the piston vs. rotary question. Players will sound the best on the instruments that they are most comfortable with. Switching to a rotary or to a piston instrument won't suddently convert a player's sound dramatically.

As far as switching to rotary trumpets in order to sound more "European", players and conductors could meet each other at a halfway point...the players could keep using their piston trumpets, but back off on them, in order to sound "more European". Heck, they could even hold their piston trumpets sideways, if that would so please the European Maestro.

Don't get me wrong. There are some incredible players on the other side of the pond. Some use pistons, others use rotarys. They will sound great on anything, but will sound the best on whatever instruments they are most comfortable on. Same goes for the players over here in the USA.

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

The young Hungarian man who won principal in the MET, quit after two weeks because he REFUSED to play a piston trumpet. He is also one of the two Chicago finalists. It will sure be interesting ot see what happens.

romey

jcdob · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:09 pm Post subject:

It's funny how american's can't stop complaining about what is best a rotary or a piston. Also I can't believe how clueless people are here...have you ever been to Europe... whole Europe and not only GERMANY or AUSTRIA. Probably not because if you had you would see that most orchestra use piston trumpet and C trumpet. In classical music they use now natural trumpet and that it because of the influence of Harnoncourt.
If you can't stand a rotary...fine but don't put the fault of European versus Americans. It's time to grow up.
Will a rotary sound match american sound, definitly not so that's the only problem to look at. Is the sound of a rotary bad??? if you think yes that means you hate the Berlin Philharmonic or the Vienna or any german orchestra..and that would be really sad.
When you play french music are french the only one that can play it the way it has to be??? I believe not but if we take your point of vue it would be yes so you americans would suck at it.

I believe every country has positive and negative sides and I am European...but I still like american sound.
Get mad at me if you want too but, to me it seems that some people are too closed mind in here and should actually go to other countried before making negatives statement about them!!!

JC

trumpetmike · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:51 pm Post subject:

If I were to be playing in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (well, we can all dream!) I would put down my Yamaha Bb and pick up a C trumpet, probably a Bach for the majority of my playing. Why? Well, that's the tradition in that orchestra. If I were to be playing in Berlin (I wish!!) it would be a rotary that became my trumpet of choice. Here in the UK, a Bb piston instrument is the current standard, but we seem to be expected to carry a C, an Eb a D a picc, rotary and often a cornet as well.

If you are to be playing a lot of Mozart and Haydn, my personal choice is for the natural trumpet sound, although I am in no way an expert on these instruments. I have stated in other posts that one of the orchestras I have played with became a rotary trumpet section. The conductor noticed the difference in our sound and encouraged us to remain on them.

I have found that I prefer playing the classical repertoire on these instruments. When I listen to Mozart, Haydn or Beethoven (especially when played on authentic instruments), the trumpets are not the blazing Bachs (to name but one make) that we are trained to use. I have found (as a player) that a rotary valve instrument enabled me to produce the tonal results I was after more easily than the piston instruments.

If we are getting into the authenticity debate, this is very dangerous ground - does ANYBODY use large F trumpets anymore? Does anyone even make them??
I prefer to use a rotary instrument for the classical repertoire because I find the tone more pleasing to my ear and I find I am able to blend more easily with the rest of the orchestra.

Maybe this is a failing of me as a trumpeter? Either I should be able to blend with any instrument, or maybe I should never wish to blend - a trumpet should always be blazing over the top?
Well, maybe, but this is my musical choice.

JackD - if you want to try a rotary valve trumpet sometime, let me know - I hope to be organising a trumpet day (either in Guildford or Woking) at some point in the near future (I will be posting details on TH when I do), if you come along I will have mine with me - more than happy to let people try it out.

JohnCage · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:09 pm Post subject:

I had been thought that central~eastern european players use rotaries from the beginning and usually.

After reading ITG interview article with Konradin Groth, who was a principal of BPO, I realized that it's not true.
In that article, a photo in which young Groth holds piston trumpet says rotary is mainly used for serious perfoming art only.

For me, the reason of preference for rotary is private. I've been watching videos of VPO, BPO... etc. many european orchestras and adored their sound. So my choice is never strange. (Why there are few american orchestras' video in my country? - there are a few CSO videos and even so the place CSO performs is europe)

However, it is somewhat interesting that when I blow others' piston horn, it feels easier and when others blow my rotary, they cannot blow easily as they bow thier own pistons.

It does not mean that hard playing is better than easy blowing. But I think that there might be some reasons for the prevailance of pistons over rotaries and there should be not only goods but also bads.

_________________
Jupiter 416S Pocket
Scherzer 8211 Bb
Scherzer 8111 Hoch Bb/A
Curry 3BC, Breslmair G2, JK Exclusive 5WA, Curry 2TF, Yamaha Custom 14a4a GP,
Bach 1 1/4C megatone:10 1/2C

[ This Message was edited by: JohnCage on 2003-12-21 23:15 ]

Kevin Good · Regular Member Joined: 08 Oct 2003 Posts: 68

We had some experience with these things years ago. Gunther Herbig was Music Director. He's an East German conductor, conservative, and steeped in Bruckner, Brahms, Beethoven. He's also a very decent and respectful person. We assumed he would want us to use rotaries. So, we got some, and as it turned out they were just not very good instruments. In the interest of not exposing the forum to liability issues, I won't mention any brand names, but in terms of response, intonation and of NOT having to go to major lengths to switch back to piston horns, the benefits they provided in terms of tonal color were simply not worth the hassle. We all have a variety of C trumpet options-changeable bells, etc. so we can effect a great deal of tonal difference without having to play a different instrument.
I was also quite pleasantly surprised when I ask Herbig directly about it. His answer was to simply play what I was most comfortable with. I think the wisdom of his answer was based on the recognition that a player will always make better music if he/she is not fighting their instrument, and frankly, I felt like whenever I played the thing, I was fighting it. You can also play some pretty nasty mind games on yourself, trying to sound good on touchy or exposed passages with an instrument that responds like a dump truck on glare ice.

I have huge respect for those players (mostly European) who make great music on rotaries.I have not seen players who enjoy much success trying to use both. If the issue is really SOUND (as opposed simply being seen) there are many ways to get a different and interesting sound.

MrClean · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:17 pm Post subject:

Kevin,

I know exactly how you feel, as I struggled playing on rotaries that I thought were absolute dogs - out of tune, hernia inducing beasts that felt like you were swimming against a strong current with a bag of concrete tied aroung your neck.

However, I have since been exposed to several rotaries from various makers who offered vastly superior products. We just finished a run of Beethoven 5s here, a piece I have never been particularly fond of playing, and I have to say it was easier on my rotary (Kuehn) then it would have been on my piston, and I really like my piston trumpet. It is strange for me to be saying this, as I have never enjoyed playing them in the past. I had to play a trial week out here before they could officially offer me the position, and one of the pieces was a Beethoven piano concerto. The horn arrived two days before I flew out to CA, and I stuck it in the bag just for grins. Well, I pulled it out, and it was much easier on it than my piston. I am all for finding easier ways to get the job done, and I wouldn't be telling you this if I didn't believe it. Try some of the newer instruments and see if your opinion changes.

Jim

Mzony · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:24 pm Post subject:

If one does a search on this forum, one would find that I wrote some things in the past that were not exactly complimentary towards rotary trumpets. I was new on the job and learning to play them was a challenge and I was certainly fighting the instrument. Truth is, I would have done anything to have avoided playing them.
A year ago, I completed a search for a better rotary, and while I was (and still am) getting more comfortable with certain aspects of the instrument, I have learned to play it with pleasurable results. I even must say that there are certain pieces that I would never like to play again on the piston.
There is something to be said for some of its charachters. I really think that it can really enhance the sound of the orchestra and for some pieces it adds a challenge to the performance that may not exist otherwise. Sometimes we need the challenge to stay engaged.
So I have changed my tune a bit. I can't make the debate about historical relevance, because I agree with most of the statements that are being made. However, I have learned to enjoy them under certain circumstances.
The only problem I really have is reconciling the difference between the sound they make and the sound a conductor THINKS they should make.

Mike

PC · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:55 am Post subject:

For me, using my rotary (a Mirafone Bb) in the orchestra is mainly a sound issue, but also because it slots like crazy compared to my Bach Bb. In fact, it slots a lot like my C piston and produces a very sweet tone, but can blaze up quite a bit. The only drawback is intonation on a few notes (well, this is an issue with the C as well) and ffff playing, again on same lame notes. But this is in no way the latest cry on the rotary front, so had I had a decent model, I guess I would have sounded even better and had an easier time playing it.

To me, the sound quality of a good rotary has a lot to do with its construction: narrow bore but huge bell and very short leadpipe. This construction is also the reason for the difficulty of adapting one's playing to it, and even liking a rotary at all.

I have heard that in the past at least, players in Berlin and Vienna never used off the shelf Lechners, but always had them taylored to be half-decent; but isn't this exactly what American players do to their C trumpets?

At my (amateur) level of playing, choice of equipment is solely function of amount of fun to be had in concert. Thus it is not infrequent to see me play Bb rotary with second on piston, or playing C piston on second part with 1st on Bb, etc. But, I now have enough practice on all my horns to be able to sound good on any one of them.

Cheers,
Pierre.

MannyLaureano · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:35 am Post subject:

I'm going to attempt to clarify my position on this business of using rotary trumpets in American orchestras:
I have used them on a very limited basis in the Minnesota Orchestra for the reasons I stated in my earlier post. The intonation has been difficult and that makes centering the tone difficult for me. Now we have a music director who has been "gently insistent" that the section use them for the repertoire for which they are typically used, at least in this country.

I have gone along with his request only for a number of reasons. First, the trombones have a set of German instruments that they, too, use for romantic and late clasical repertoire. Also he has taken the second violins and put them on the outside, in the old style, as they were in most orchestras until after the War. The flutes play wooden ones on this repertoire, also.

The point is the use of the rotary trumpets should be part of an organic approach to music-making, not some novelty that a conductor decided should be part of his reading of Haydn, Beethoven, or Bruckner. It was easier to accept his request when I saw that it came from a holistic sense of sound. For this reason,I declined to use a rotary trumpet to play Rigoletto. What would be the point in that?

Now, to the poster from Tempe: I can assure you that at age 48 I am sufficiently "grown-up" to know the ways of conductors of many ages and have traveled the world making music. It is clear that Europe is a big place and that there are different uses of different instruments for different repertoire. I have heard the Berlin Phiharmonic in the Filarmony (pardon my spelling if that is incorrect)as well as Orchestra Hall in Chicago. I have heard The VPO in the Musikverein and at the Opera House. I have heard the LSO at the Barbican using the Bb trumpets. The point for listing my aural resume is simply that traditions are what count in these places just as they should here, in America. We have, for whatever reasons, sociologically been almost made ashamed of our musical heritage when compared to European tradition. What nonsense! This has been perpetuated by AMERICAN conductors and artists not so much by European visitors. So, my railing was mistaken , I believe, by you to be interpreted as somehow faulting Europeans for this phenomenom. This is not the case , at least my me.

My desire is for trumpeters here to be proud of our style of playing and to use their brains not equipment to play music of all kinds. Maybe a mouthpiece change here, a different vibrato there, a greater listening here is what helps us to become better-rounded players.

Thank you for reading and, I hope, understanding.

[ This Message was edited by: MannyLaureano on 2003-12-22 11:25 ]

tromba mann · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:04 am Post subject:

Some great responses! One common thread I see is most would rather make the choice of playing rotaries for musical reasons (easier to play well for certain rep, able to achieve a certain sound fitting the music) and not strictly for authenticity's sake. That seems very reasonable to me. Some conductors may be confused on this matter. Why not let the principal and the section make the decisions to play specific types of equipment, as long as they achieve the sound the conductor wants to hear? As stated above, what makes the rotary different sounding is not the valves so much as the bore, the length of specific components and perhaps the bell. How hard would it be to build a piston trumpet like that? How hard would it be to build a rotary that had a longer leadpipe, bigger bore and more projecting bell? You could probably part hair with 229 efficiency with a rotary using piston dimensions. (Let's set aside any engineering issues with fitting piston components around rotary valves-someone out there could do it).

At the end of the day, sound is king. If you can get a darker, warmer, whatever sound by tweaking mouthpieces, leapipes, bells, etc., why should anyone care what horn is used as long as the musical results are the same? The answer is that fashion and trend matter for many conductors and some misguided purists who think that rotaries are somehow closer to the original thing. If an orchestra has as its mission the interpretation of music using original instruments, that is wonderful - and very instructive to the rest of us. But there would need to be natural trumpets, not rotaries. And they would need to play in smaller halls with smaller forces using period winds and strings. As mentioned above - the slope can get very slippery. If an orchestra has as its mission to be a creative force interpreting music, it should not matter what means are used, just the results. Rotary or piston, gut or nylon (or whatever modern strings use!) - it should be whatever the musician feels can best express his/her musical thought. Beyond that...its all fashion.

[ This Message was edited by: tromba mann on 2003-12-22 10:20 ]