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SaxoTrump
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Location: Eastern Europe
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 Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: |
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And yes there are some good bits. posted at 6:14 pm, EST, 3/7/2020.
Now MY good bits list (6:40 pm EST 3/7/2020)
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0:39:00 embouchure muscle physiology
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1:14:00 Embouchure & lip
1:18:30 Watch for changes in head position, what lips get mouthpiece pressure, jaw action.
1:34:30 lip aperture control
1:58:35 breath inhale, and watch lip / embouchure construction.
Jay |
Jay - thanks for a quick review of the video. You are way ahead of me.
As a side note but strictly on the subject of the thread I should confess that I feel quite embarrassed and somewhat disappointed after getting to realize that all that embouchure and lip physiology and what's more important how it all should be applied in the trumpet playing mode is so important.
Honestly saying I now realize that I wanted to live in the Fairyland with the simple rules like those formulated by Claude Gordon who I just discovered. "Forget about the lip! Practice correctly and everything will take care of itself!".
If there are so many variables and fine details in the functional embouchure setup and my own example clearly shows how easily one can go the wrong path and blame everything but the lack of knowledge of how the basic embouchure muscles should be tensed correctly - why are there such broad statements from (still very respectable) Claude Gordon and alike?
Shouldn't be that statement read more like: "Once your embouchure functions correctly forget about the lip but when practicing correctly always make sure your embouchure maintains correct shape and makes necessary adjustments and THEN - everything will take care of itself!".
However in the latter case the "forget about the lip" part can be safely removed and the phrase will have a completely opposite meaning. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | why are there such broad statements from (still very respectable) Claude Gordon and alike?
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Because trumpet players are gullible. It is that and a combination of things. Using the embouchure to produce tone must become primarily habit, that is, a subconscious set of actions.
There is a physiological reason that the tongue moves forward as one increases embouchure effort to ascend.
But Gordon, most of his dogmatic disciples, and others attempt to give the tongue direct credit for pitch control by some made-up false mechanics in regard to the air properties it magically affects.
You can't sling a cat video on YouTube without hitting a video of some trumpet player "explaining" how air speed and air "compression" are controlled by the tongue and proclaiming that is what controls pitch.
They are attempting to be profound and hold the "secret". But the true mechanics are quite simpler. And that is, the lips control the pitch, period.
The tongue movement is helpful and makes manipulating the embouchure easier and more natural in regard to the body's actual functions. But how much also depends on your embouchure style.
While the embouchure habits will determine your success of making tone. For some, such as Gordon, giving the embouchure any credit at all is a bridge too far and is "obsessing".
Don't buy it. |
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lipshurt
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm you say you’re pretty stubborn, I can believe that. My suggestion is to do exactly what the teacher told you to do for about 4 months. I bet after that you are massively better.
I taught 50 lessons a week for 15 years, occasionally you come across someone who need to do an embouchere reset. That means kind of starting over. Some players have the humility it takes to start over. You will have to do everything different. What you are doing does not work. Try what he said. It sounds like you rejected it outright because you did not like how rough he was, and honestly it does not sound like he was that rough, just doing what he thought it might take to impress upon you how Important it was to totally change how you play.
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SaxoTrump
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Location: Eastern Europe
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | ...
It sounds like you rejected it outright because you did not like how rough he was, and honestly it does not sound like he was that rough, just doing what he thought it might take to impress upon you how Important it was to totally change how you play. |
You are right - that was my first reaction but if you read my subsequent posts throughout the thread course I gradually was realizing that what I was taught in that lesson was indeed needed to make me understand that I did it totally wrong.
That doesn't mean the teacher wasn't rough and pushy. In fact he was but regardless of that I'm now very grateful to him for his help.
We are simply two people with quite different temperaments.
By the way - I see what interpretation of 'stubborn' you chose to use. Perhaps I should've described my quality with a different term. No - I don't continue to do things the wrong way if I realize that. In this particular case I just needed time to fully understand the problem. |
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Vin DiBona
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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If you were a horn player, would you reject this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=337WL0xXbM8&t=1149s
David Cooper is the principal horn of the Chicago Symphony. About 11 minutes in, he gets to some important principles.
Some of this can apply to trumpet playing.
R. Tomasek |
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SaxoTrump
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for a YT link.
I wanted to clarify my goals to make it clear what it's all about. I'd like to have a solid range of up to high C, I doubt I need more for my amateur playing. I would play a theme of a simple Jazz standard, say Autumn Leaves, Just Friends, Out of Nowhere etc. and then play couple of impro choruses on top of it.
That's it. I know improvisation pathways pretty well, I only need to develop them on trumpet and since so far I've been struggling with the instrument I could hardly play a theme well, forget about extending it to the impro part. Hope it all improves with the new embouchure setting. I'm willing to start it all over again. |
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JayKosta
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| SaxoTrump wrote: | | ... Hope it all improves with the new embouchure setting. I'm willing to start it all over again. |
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Please post again after a few weeks or month (to give yourself enough time to have really practiced and adapted) to let us know how you are doing, and what changes seem to have helped or hurt. That type of feedback will help me get a better understanding of what is understandable and useful.
Many people start threads asking for advice about embouchure and upper range, but very few of them provide useful feedback - maybe they don't appreciate what is told, it isn't helpful, or it is so helpful that they don't feel any need to continue the thread.
And of course do post more frequently as you'd like, but an update on your long-term situation would be nice.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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SaxoTrump
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Jay - I'll try! So many things to remember. You know...
| JayKosta wrote: | | SaxoTrump wrote: | | ... Hope it all improves with the new embouchure setting. I'm willing to start it all over again. |
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Please post again after a few weeks or month (to give yourself enough time to have really practiced and adapted) to let us know how you are doing, and what changes seem to have helped or hurt. That type of feedback will help me get a better understanding of what is understandable and useful.
Many people start threads asking for advice about embouchure and upper range, but very few of them provide useful feedback - maybe they don't appreciate what is told, it isn't helpful, or it is so helpful that they don't feel any need to continue the thread.
And of course do post more frequently as you'd like, but an update on your long-term situation would be nice.
Jay |
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SaxoTrump
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: |
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I really don't think lip overhang is causing your problem. What I'm hypothesizing is that what it will take is reworking/re-focusing how you're using your physical tools which is what I did.
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Robert - I check it once again and even if I don't think that might be a problem at the moment, however:
- I have very long bottom teeth
- I have very long top lip
When I set my embouchure for playing position - with the parted teeth My bottom teeth stick out slightly above bottom lip. I don't know how badly it would affect air stream with well established playing habits (I haven't developed them yet with the new emb. setting and someone here said it'd take me at least 4 months) but that's probably something to consider and keep in mind. |
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Heim
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: |
I have so many thoughts about this, but all of them require me to see and hear what you are doing to know for sure what's going on.
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Exactly. SaxoTrump you need to post a video if you truly want an answer that isn't just a shot in the dark. I can guess what you are doing wrong but I won't waste time explaining how to fix a problem when I haven't seen and heard you play. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| SaxoTrump wrote: | | Robert P wrote: |
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I really don't think lip overhang is causing your problem. What I'm hypothesizing is that what it will take is reworking/re-focusing how you're using your physical tools which is what I did.
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Robert - I check it once again and even if I don't think that might be a problem at the moment, however:
- I have very long bottom teeth
- I have very long top lip
When I set my embouchure for playing position - with the parted teeth My bottom teeth stick out slightly above bottom lip. I don't know how badly it would affect air stream with well established playing habits (I haven't developed them yet with the new emb. setting and someone here said it'd take me at least 4 months) but that's probably something to consider and keep in mind. |
You still haven't specified how you concluded how you think your lips and teeth are lining up. There are a lot of complex sensations going on - the mouth and lips are very sensitive - tiny adjustments feel huge. When going through the quest to fix dysfunctionalities with my own chops I realized that very often what I might perceive was happening wasn't really what's happening.
While I allow for the possibility that it really is happening, I remain skeptical - for me to recreate what you describe - bottom lip receded below the top edge of the bottom teeth, top lip at or below the upper edge of the bottom teeth - requires incredibly unnatural contortions and impacts the sound and overall ability to play in a profound way that would make it impossible to function decently even at a much lower range than a top of staff G. It just doesn't work - it creates a huge impediment to air getting between the lips.
What's the highest note you feel you can consistently play with a good sound? It would be really useful to see/hear video to assess what you're doing, how you sound, what's happening when you get into the problem zone.
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Last edited by Robert P on Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:58 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Ed Kennedy
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link - it's different than what I expected! Very little about breathing and air, and a lot about lip vibrations.
I think the section starting at 5:30 is important because Jacobs talks about his NOT attempting to teach how the lips/embouchure should function. But rather his suggesting playing exercises that will (hopefully) force the student to find, learn, and develop the functions that produce good playing results.
This reinforces my belief that the 'good teachers' do know and care about embouchure and lip vibrations - but might not have the 'words' to describe to a student HOW to do the necessary mechanics. So when they observe/detect poor lip usage, they recognize that a change is needed and proceed in a manner such as Jacobs described.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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SaxoTrump
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:30 am Post subject: |
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I'm going with the new embouchure setting for the 4th day now.
It's a nightmare  - I lost my ability to produce tone (as it was suggested somewhere above).
- for the first 2 days I practiced new setting without equipment and by the end of the second day I could recognize new shape with the muscle memory.
- For the last 2 days I applied the MP to the new setting and then... the horn.
I can find the Low C with struggle and after I find it while maintaining the new embouchure setting I can hold it - however: I can hardly add any valved notes above Low D. A slur to the middle G doesn't work either: it feels like there is no more strength left in the embouchure corners. All the power goes into holding the Low C in place.
This new setting makes me get into all kinds of facial grimacing as it's not "natural" (habitual?) for me to hold my lips in that position.
Well - I can now do it firmly without the MP and the horn but once the latter is added I tend to slip into the frown again and counteracting that movement takes substantial conscious effort.
In this new setting the teeth tend to close down - it allows me to hold the shape with less effort. Once I try to hold them apart it increases the effort substantially.
Also, I don't know how bad is that but the muscles that hold the new shape up and not allowing it to collapse into the frown are already pretty tensed up and that transfers that tension into the lips. However at this point I have no proper feel of how tense the lips really are in the new setting.
Last edited by SaxoTrump on Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:11 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Don Herman rev2
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Arnolds, Adam, Caruso, and many other methods are based upon the teacher providing sound models or simple directions/examples to students to move them in the right direction without obsessive "paralysis by analysis" and micro-monitoring and questioning every little physical sensation. It is the teacaher's job to understand the mechanics and how to help guide the student.
You do not need to know vector calculus to look at an on-coming car and decide if it is safe to enter a crosswalk. Sometimes too much thinking is bad.
Zen in the Art of Archery, Effortless Mastery, etc. can be good reads.
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lipshurt
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:41 am Post subject: |
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So saxo sent me a video of his embouchure and his problems are very minor.
Basically his mouthpiece placement is fine. His lips look great. No weird problems of the top lip protruding or crossing the bottom lip etc. His emboucure is good. The only problem he is having is that as he goes higher he lets his top lip go out a bit but not a lot. If he just learns how to lip slur in the middle registers his upper register will develop with practice. Slurring from c to e and then from middle go to upper e and getting flexibility in the middle registers, as well as getting scales to be smoothly get through the middle registers is all needs to do. No thinking of his líos or trying to change anything about his embouchure. I have taught a lot of lessons and his embouchure is going to respond to practice as long as:
He does not practice loud when he gets tired
He does not practice too much in the upper register.
He practices líp slurs with the upper notes just a little bit softer than the lower.
He practices scales and melodies with Finesse and musicality. Not forcing or playing louder than is tasteful.
This is not a tough case that is hard figure out. Basically he can practice his way out of it.
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mafields627
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:08 am Post subject: |
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I think the section starting at 5:30 is important because Jacobs talks about his NOT attempting to teach how the lips/embouchure should function. But rather his suggesting playing exercises that will (hopefully) force the student to find, learn, and develop the functions that produce good playing results.
[/quote]
This is one of the central tenets of the Balanced Embouchure - exercises to train the lips to do what they should (which in BE is to Roll Out for the low range and Roll In for the upper register). The lips should be free to move inside the mouthpiece. In my experience, trumpet players too often pin the lips in place with the mouthpiece and play with an aperture that is spread too open as they try to play with a "dark" tone.
I think there is a balance to be found somewhere between the "forget your embouchure and focus on sound" camp and the hyper analysis that is sometimes posted here. I believe that what happens is sometimes too finite to analyze or control as you play, but it must be controlled to do what you need your embouchure to do.
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No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | So saxo sent me a video of his embouchure and his problems are very minor.
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I figured the top lip over the bottom teeth thing wasn't reality.
I'm going to stop contributing to embouchure mechanics threads unless the poster is willing to post video. I think the mods should make it a requirement.
"Post video" and that's it until they do.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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SaxoTrump
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | lipshurt wrote: | So saxo sent me a video of his embouchure and his problems are very minor.
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I figured the top lip over the bottom teeth thing wasn't reality.
I'm going to stop contributing to embouchure mechanics threads unless the poster is willing to post video. I think the mods should make it a requirement.
"Post video" and that's it until they do. |
Robert - please check your PM In-box but let's keep it private between us. OK?
Is your In-box 100% full? |
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SaxoTrump
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks to all of you who reviewed my playing habits (not so good in my opinion) but none of you spotted anything completely unacceptable. Minor corrections were suggested.
All this leads me to some thoughts - maybe not so cheerful but at least honest. What if there are really people out there (and one is myself) who merely have not enough talent to develop well on trumpet and obtain adequate results no matter how much and what they practice?
Please note - I'm not range fanatic, high C for me would be just a reasonable range to play up to A, a min 3rd below that is featured in quite a few standards.
A few minutes ago I've read on "another" trumpet forum:
"...I m not a good trumpet player.. beeen playing for 3years, practise 2 hrs a day, never had a lesson, in last 6 months I ve started to get it together!! ... 6 months ago g above staff out my comfort range. Now it isn’t .. easy as say the old e. A above staff is now the new goal. 2 days ago it came out perfect.. "
Such posts as the above are a norm for an average person who takes up trumpet. Many people normally get to my current range within 6 months.
- I've practiced diligently over last 10 years. I just don't feel that notes above middle E come out easily. I've tried various approaches. I've already changed my embouchure a few times along the way. The result is always the same - G on top of the staff is my cut off range.
There is something in trumpet playing that just doesn't feel right to me. I can't explain it.
Maybe I just have to accept the fact that I'm not suited well for trumpet for whatever reason it is? Let's call it a "talent".
OK, I'm going to stick with the embouchure setting suggested to me by the pro who is the subject of this thread. He wanted to give me 1 month as a realistic time frame for "breaking the ice".
Contrary to what he said many of you didn't suggest any drastic changes to my embouchure but I need to take a chance to at least prove him wrong.
Anyway - he was actually quite skeptical regarding my trumpet playing talent. That was his opinion. He was talking from his experience.
Well, let's see how it goes and if anything changes.
I should really stop posting for now. Otherwise this rambling will go on and on.
If anything changes I'll get back to this thread.
For now - Thanks EVERYONE!
Last edited by SaxoTrump on Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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