Went to a local pro for a lesson - confused and disappointed

[kehaulani]

Not everyone agrees about the talent thing, but I'll just say that I was a much better woodwind player than a trumpet player. And on brass, I was a better French horn player than a trumpet player. IMO, trumpet's in a class by itself.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
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[Vin DiBona]

I agree with Kehaulani. Not everyone is cut out for certain instruments.
I've played with many players over the years who had played trumpet for over 20 years and still were very poor players. Bad range, bad sound, and poor intonation. On the other hand, I've also played with young players with maybe 5 years of playing and they could handle the instrument very well.
Talent does make a difference.
R. Tomasek

[epoustoufle]

[Crazy Finn]

[Robert P]

[chuck in ny]

the doctor is IN.
sax you have already figured this out.
a,, you spent money
b,, you received pain


you have been had. it's a common human experience. do your research lad.
you can do this. you are good for another octave of range. it is a difficult instrument but anyone can do it with the proper help.

[Heim]

[SaxoTrump]

[SaxoTrump]

[Ed Kennedy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVREWJ4xfoI&list=PL976DE9A62F7DEA55

Check this out, Urban Agnas, I've found his video helpful for working fundamentals.

[SaxoTrump]

Interestingly enough, Agnas has the same "collapsed frown" type of embouchure I was strongly advised to abandon. It works for him up high but not for me.
Weird! There is one difference however: in that corners down frown position he manages to engage his top lip while my top lip in that position tends to extend further down and flatten out when I ascend.

"Don't flatten out your top lip while stretching it down and engage it instead!" - you might say.
- Oh, yeah - it's so easy
That's why I'm going to stick with what I was advised by the pro for now - bring my corners up.
At the time being I do exactly that and gradually become familiar with that position but... no tone so far.
If it doesn't work out within a reasonable time frame then... who knows what happens then.

[Heim]

[Robert P]

[SaxoTrump]

[SaxoTrump]

TO ALL: I want to thank so many people who took their time to review my bad playing techniques and provided me with their useful comments. I'm glad so many people here on TH are willing to help!

Christ and Robert - thank you for your video replies!
Dave, Jay, Stuart, Doug, Darryl, Heim and everyone else who I don't mention - thank you very much!

Even if I won't be able to fix my bad way of sound production on trumpet I at least know what I've been doing wrong and what prevented me from becoming a better amateur trumpet player.

As I once read on a guitar forum, someone put it very nicely regarding time spent learning a musical instrument and expecting results in response: "This World doesn't owe us anything".

[Robert P]

[SaxoTrump]

O Boy!
I finally realized how I developed this poor technique and those of you who watched my video probably noticed it.
Chris noticed it and replicated it in his video reply perfectly.

What is it? - It's simply "Misinterpreted Maggio"! In other words it's misinterpreted Greg Spence who I got the fundamentals of the "AUh" shape from and again - I misinterpreted it for the high register!
In the part of embouchure formation and I just realized that: Greg Spence=Maggio.

EDIT: Sorry for my ignorance. This might be 'Farkas' rather than 'Maggio' setting. This might be as well something in between of Farkas and Maggio. It's quite difficult to interpret the exact shape which is a 'pucker smile' and assign it a specific type. I doubt it's an extreme pucker like in the Maggio method but it's not a neutral Farkas position either. Go figure.

Now, what I did wrong and how it all led to this poor technique.
- From the very beginning I got the basic shape right and it's actually quite impossible to misinterpret the Maggio-Greg shape.
- I got quite acceptable lower register up to middle C using the basic shape with one obvious mistake: I kept the shape too open, with literal interpretation of the wide open aperture that Greg demonstrates in his videos!

NOW, the biggest mistake I've made and I see how stupid it was on my part to misinterpret the core idea and misapply it in terms of the range ascend: I tried to keep the same open shape when ascending while quite correctly firming up the corners at the same time
...BUT...
to keep that open shape I had a very clear picture of in my mind I drew the whole shape down!
That's why my top lip just stretched down into a thin blanket following the whole shape formation.
Yes the corners were firming up but since the top lip was so radically stretched down it had no cushion and no tonus in it.
Is it all clear from my description?

Maggio=Greg does not work that way! (Actually no embouchure would work that way).
The shape stays in place and should get more tight while maintaining the outward lips central part. It's sort of working the corners in and making the aperture channel more and more tighter while ascending.

It just clicked! You won't believe how stupid I feel myself

The lesson with the pro wasn't wasted. He quite correctly insisted that I had to keep my top lip in place and keep it tensioned in the firm cushioned manner.
He also instructed me to roll my lips in (how he plays himself) - the conventional method, which in this part is in complete contradiction with the Maggio-style embouchure - however between the Maggio=Greg and the M-shape (roll in) there is absolutely no contradiction in terms of keeping the lips cushioned.

Ok, I'm off trying to correct the movement, it other words I'll be working on keeping the whole shape in place, make it more tight working from the corners (when needed) and watch it closely in the mirror.

Again - thanks a lot everyone for giving me food for thought!
I hope it works out. If not - then M-shape (and roll-in) will follow. However:
1. I have hard time working with the 'M' and roll-in (as I feel it).
2. I've read on the Pops site just now that he strongly recommends Maggio (read "Greg" if you will) for those who has "serious dental malformations" and looking at my teeth, it of course perfectly applies to me.

[SaxoTrump]

And one more comment to explain WHY it all happened.
- From the Greg's videos and from other sources I reviewed at that point I firmly ingrained 2 ideas:
- use as little as possible vertical lip to lip compression ("work from the corners" idea)
- use as little MP pressure as possible.

Actually in my own interpretation I took both ideas to the absolute maximum. While "as little MP pressure as possible" was quite beneficial to me and it is up to this day (I had too much MP pressure before so that my top teeth were aching after playing),
the first idea - "as little as possible vertical lip to lip compression" played a really evil joke on me - you can get a complete picture of how it developed in the post above.
So... it was all mental. First - I got a "prescription" and then subconsciously tried to follow it no matter what.

Now you can probably understand why I used so much tension when trying to ascend above middle E: at that point the top lip was already quite stretched down and this stretch further caused more problems as a consequence:
1. the top lip was left without firm cushion - was thin and weak, it would not give any support to MP
2. since the emb. shape was moving down the upper part of the shape was pulled up and I used two opposing motions in my attempt to maintain the basic Maggio shape.
These two motions were working in complete opposition to each other! That is they were in conflict! - And I tied to play that way...

[Robert P]

[SaxoTrump]