Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:37 am Post subject:
SaxoTrump wrote:
... Greg does not focus on any kind of "proper tension". His method is based on eliminating as much unnecessary tension as possible first. ..
----------------------------
The key item here is 'unnecessary tension' - but some tension is REQUIRED. The lips cannot vibrate at the proper rate without a controlled amount of tension.
Why does 'Greg does not focus on any kind of "proper tension" ' - having proper tension is vital.
It might not be done (or feel) the same way by everyone, and it is difficult to explain or demonstrate, but having a student think that tension can be ignored is wrong.
If you really have unusual lips / teeth, then some type of 'specialized' embouchure technique or mouthpiece placement might be needed.
For most people using the conventional mouthpiece setting and embouchure formation is fine. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:03 am Post subject:
Jay - let me please stop posting at this point. It gets me nowhere.
Who really knows why it doesn't happen?
I'm finishing with the following note.
Once at a trumpet resource site I read a trumpet instructor's statement that: Almost anyone can build up to high C.
Let's assume that 'Almost' means 999 out of 1000 people can build up to high C and 1 can't - just can't whatever that might be.
If that one is me - fine. We found him! I'll try to prove that wrong but I don't promise anything.
That's All Folks!
JayKosta wrote:
...
If you really have unusual lips / teeth, then some type of 'specialized' embouchure technique or mouthpiece placement might be needed.
For most people using the conventional mouthpiece setting and embouchure formation is fine.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:00 am Post subject:
SaxoTrump wrote:
Jay - let me please stop posting at this point. It gets me nowhere.
...
---------------------------------------------
SaxoTrump - I wasn't expecting a response from you - my post was to (hopefully) give you another viewpoint about what you had mentioned.
If someone mentions other ideas or things to try, you're not under any obligation to do so - nor to respond. If someone asks a direct question, perhaps respond to them with a PM instead of a detailed post to the thread.
Threads such as this might get read in the future by others who are in a similar situation as you, so there is benefit to adding info here, even if it does not apply directly to you. And especially if it helps the overall understanding and implementation of various teaching methods.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
SaxoTrump, have you had a (or several) lesson with Greg? If not, it might be helpful to ensure that you are interpreting/understanding what you are seeing/hearing in his YT videos both as Greg intends and as would be helpful to you. He might be able to help with that in a live/synchronous setting.
...
As I stated in my message to you I don't think you have *enough* of the right kind and focus of tension, I also think you might not be opening your teeth enough.
Robert - you are completely right. I don't feel myself like I have the right king of tension!
In a way I'm sort of "trumpet-dumb". I have a feeling that I have NO proper feedback from my playing. What did I have to do in that situation? I basically had two choices:
- Accept the fact that I'm "trumpet-dumb" and quit playing altogether.
- Make an attempt at analyzing what's going wrong and try to correct that.
I decided to go with the latter. Since they are habits deeply ingrained into the way I've played up to this point I don't think it's possible to make an immediate change like:
"Oh, I know what I was doing wrong, let me change that at the snap of a finger". I don't think it works that way.
So I don't believe I'm going to progress at the speed of light from now on. With my playing experience up to date and my current level I've proved to myself and to everyone else that I've got neither enough talent nor proper attitude at developing good trumpet playing habits.
If I never succeed on trumpet even with all the kind help of my TH friends - never mind.
You've done your best at helping me and I try to do my best to change the way I play but I need a starting point to start applying changes.
However if I'm indeed "trumpet dumb" no good intentions are ever going to help me.
I'm sorry if I disappointed you.
Robert P wrote:
...
It shouldn't take weeks and months, if you find the right way it should happen pretty quickly. When you get say a decent sounding D on the staff, analyze what you're doing - do it every time. Ditto an E, F, G etc. let the sound and how it feels guide you - it should look like whatever it needs to when it's working to give you the desired results.
...
He says that there are hundreds of people like myself who come to him in their hope to improve their playing. He never promises immediate results.
He also works with people who have focal dystonia and he describes it in the following way:
"Those people can bring the MP to their lips and it's perfectly correct setting. They connect a lead pipe to the MP and it works fine.
However - once they pick up the horn and try blow something weird happens: suddenly there is a puff at the side of their embouchure and everything goes down the drain."
Greg says that the bad habits are deeply wired into one's brain and to break that barrier he developed his method in order to help people like me.
I've tried to use his method but it hasn't helped me so far. I tried to analyze where I went wrong in my post that you criticized (perhaps, quite rightly).
Greg does not focus on any kind of "proper tension". His method is based on eliminating as much unnecessary tension as possible first.
I fully understand his concepts, however:
Once I pick up the horn and prepare to blow I immediately feel myself anxious and uneasy and tensed up.
How to eliminate that first if that's a part of my personality?
- I try to eliminate any kind of tension and I still have pretty much of it and my tension-less embouchure you have observed in my video results in how I play.
- I try to apply "proper tension" and I only make the things worse since I have no proper feel for the "right tension".
- I try to eliminate unnecessary tension and go round in circles.
Obviously you're absolutely correct to want to analyze why you're not getting the results you want and I guarantee there's a definite, identifiable reason why. However, what seems like a problem to me is that when trying to follow some "school of thought" of embouchure you're focused on trying to adapt to what you think they might mean - you've mentioned lack of clarity before, trying to make your chops conform to a template that's not really clear to you in the first place and not focusing on the reality of what actually happens *for you* when you get a better sound. I've seen too many people say they tried this or that method, went to some high-note guru and paid for coaching, and really didn't see much in the way of results.
I think at this point you can get a better/fatter sound in the range you can reach simply by blowing with a bit more gusto. As you go chromatically from say low C up, get as fat & resonant a sound as you can on each note and hold it. Observe what everything feels like at a particular note. Also focus on how it feels slightly different from one note to the next. C# will feel different than C and so on. Also pay attention to the difference between larger leaps - for ex. from low C to first space F or second line G. And also the changes as you play louder and softer. That's why practice is important, you're training yourself to make those changes more accurately and consistently. You're always walking a tightrope - everyone can miss. The greatest players you've ever heard have split notes they didn't intend to split.
Suggestions regarding some very general, big-picture mechanical things to experiment with changing -
- I'd look at your bottom lip. You didn't use a visualizer so it's hard to tell exactly what's going on but as I mentioned I sense your bottom lip might be too sucked in. Judging from the red ring on your bottom lip it's really low on your bottom lip even though the edge of your top lip seems to be at the halfway point on the mouthpiece. If your bottom lip is in fact sucked in, that could definitely negatively impact your sound and range.
- Though it doesn't stick out to me like your bottom lip issue, I also wonder about whether the placement on your upper lip is a tad low. It might not be, just something to think about. I experiment with this myself but it seems to like being where it is. Speaking of misleading instruction, I once saw a beginner trumpet book where they talked about mouthpiece placement, that using a visualizer there should be a little bit of top lip white showing in the visualizer. No caveats, no qualifiers, just that's the way it should be. I'm sure it works fine for some players with thin top lips, not gonna happen with me.
- As I mentioned previously, experiment with the horn angle - try what I suggested - bring it up to where the note cuts off and then bring it down to where you get it to speak again and try to shoot for that position. For myself I find that's where things happen the best.
As for the Greg Spence material. Meh. I watched one of his videos "How to control your Aperture Corners for playing high notes on the trumpet" and while he makes some individual points that make sense, overall viewing it as someone who has some level of a handle on my chops after a lot of struggle, I think he presents a lot of vague abstractions he doesn't really make clear and I can see how it would only confuse someone who's struggling. I don't think it would have helped me at all. It also doesn't match up with what I myself experience. Personally I regard focusing on the aperture and "corners" to be misguided in the first place.
Quote:
Greg does not focus on any kind of "proper tension". His method is based on eliminating as much unnecessary tension as possible first.
There's always going to be tension in your embouchure. It wouldn't work without it. There's tension in your facial muscles, tension in your jaw, tension in your throat, tension in your abdomen. You're a human with muscles whose primary function is to provide tension. The "right" amount and location of tension is what's there when you get the results you want. Further the tension isn't operating by itself - none of the elements of playing a trumpet are, it's all part of a whole - there's lip & teeth alignment, teeth opening, airflow, amount and distribution of pressure of the mp.
Here's a progression of my embouchure going from low C to G over high C. Obviously there's tension.
Look at the positive - you've gotten beyond the rank beginner level. You can reliably and consistently produce a sound. You know you *can* play up to about a G. Neither of us will likely ever become the next Doc or Maynard but I think with some comparatively minor adjustments you could break through the plateau you find yourself at. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 127 Location: Queensland
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:28 pm Post subject: Wow, okay...
Hi all, was just informed of this thread...
Being misinterpreted when communicating in daily life is tough for everyone so I spend my life trying to be as concise and unambiguous as possible. Of course there will always be exceptions.
I do not have the time nor inclination to wander around forums hoping to correct the occasional misunderstanding but this thread needs some clarification.
Before I start, I want to pay homage to the person in the post before mine. Your "Meh" attitude about my teaching is both offensive and ignorant. Your opinions on tension are not only incorrect but actually very dangerous.
In a forum meant to encourage those who are struggling, I suggest you do your homework before expressing such dismissive and critical opinions.
One OLD video does not represent my entire teaching approach.
One NEW video dispels your apparent love of tension.
I have been misquoted several times throughout this thread so let me try to fit a lifetime of experimenting, learning and experience into a couple of quick sentences.
What I am working on is efficiency. There is negativeand positive tension and I can guarantee that most of you reading have an incorrect understanding of what is (or isn't) required to play efficiently. Watch the above video for more...
Spence doesn't = Maggiobut the psychology behind one particular area of my teaching does align with a Maggio concept; eliminating the pinching at the centre of the lips. Are you meant to look like a chimp? NO! It's just making a point about Aperture Corners (and FYI I use the term Aperture Corner Tension) and most of you will be thinking, oh yeah, the corners of the mouth... NOPE, that's NOT what I mean.
I use the voice to unlock body resonance, airflow, to set a new feeling/sensation and to set a fresh, efficient psychology. At first look, you will think I am nuts, that's fine, but if you were to engage with what I am getting at, you will "get" it.
The tongue position plays a roll in pitch change resonance but does not determine pitch change itself. I have been around this forum for years and instead of having strictly held beliefs and opinions, I took the time to do my own in-depth research and experimentation. I don't care to argue these points, believe whatever you like. I do demonstrate it all in fine detail at the WindWorks course.
I have had a chat with the OP and know the issues and I hope to continue to work with him because as a lot of you can tell, there is more a psychological reset that needs to take place rather than a "new lip position".
As I say in the free Largo Status Stage mini lectures, PLEASE QUESTION/CHALLENGE ME! BUT, in order to do that, you must be prepared to firstly question your own beliefs.
Have a great day and stay safe out there people, the world has gone mad!
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Wow, okay...
Greg Spence wrote:
Hi all, was just informed of this thread...
Being misinterpreted when communicating in daily life is tough for everyone so I spend my life trying to be as concise and unambiguous as possible. Of course there will always be exceptions.
I do not have the time nor inclination to wander around forums hoping to correct the occasional misunderstanding but this thread needs some clarification.
Before I start, I want to pay homage to the person in the post before mine. Your "Meh" attitude about my teaching is both offensive and ignorant. Your opinions on tension are not only incorrect but actually very dangerous.
In a forum meant to encourage those who are struggling, I suggest you do your homework before expressing such dismissive and critical opinions.
One OLD video does not represent my entire teaching approach.
One NEW video dispels your apparent love of tension.
I never heard of you until your name was brought up in this thread. If I'd found your video to be really amazing i would have said so. I understand you've got something to sell and don't like it when someone finds your product lacking. Calling it like I see it, just like reviewing a pizza joint online. Btw if your old video can't stand on its own merits why is it still up? Watching the newer video you reference doesn't inspire me to modify my original assessment. If there are those who say your input has helped and made all the difference, okay, glad it worked for them.
We have the example of the original poster who so far has not found your methodology helpful.
I don't have an emotional attachment to tension one way or another, I know that it's necessary. If you're seriously trying to make a claim to the contrary I regard such a claim as being in defiance of reality. When I watch Doc play I can see there's obviously tension present. When James Morrison plays, I can see there's obviously tension present. When I play there's tension present. When you play there's tension present. If you assert that's "ignorant", okee doke. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 127 Location: Queensland
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:11 am Post subject:
If I wanted to be a racing car driver and watched a video on brake pads, I guess I'd think "Meh" as well.
I'm totally open to constructive criticism and as far as "got something to sell", I have more free content on Youtube than anyone else I know because I have a serious passion for learning, psychology and educating.
I know if you had a channel helping people with their trumpet playing, I would never dismiss your thoughts even if they didn't align with mine.
New videos do not deem old videos invalid. The old video is fine but peoples cognitive dissonance makes it hard to get the point across so you must take numerous angles.
You do not relate to the attached video because you do not understand and see on a daily basis, like I do, the trauma both beginner and professional players have with their playing.
Strength is not the answer. If it was, this forum, my site and all other brass education material would cease to exist. The traditional, tighten up and blow more air to play higher is HISTORY!!!
The OP has numerous issues and has posted in depth on my site as well. He is not doing what is instructed and I pointed it out to him. I look forward to talking to him further.
And for your information, I suggest you go a reread the posts on this thread. He knows what he needs to do, it is just the PROCESS that needs to be amended.
You are a perfect example of people that cannot be helped because you don't need help and you have it figured out...
I agree, tension is necessary. But what is important is the psychological impact you have on a student. Once a decent breath is taken, the body is ready to RELEASE tension, not engage tension.
You do not need to activate the abdominal muscles to play and you do not need jaw tension or throat tension. Saying you need tension in the embouchure instantly creates unnecessary tension in the embouchure.
That is like saying you need jaw, throat and abdominal tension to talk...
I always find it astounding when people use the BEST players in the world to make a point. Clearly these amazing players can make it work as do many, many others. I am saying a lot of it is unnecessary and hinders tens if not hundreds of thousands of people.
I am sure you are a nice guy and I am sorry to use you as an example but I need to highlight what goes on at these forums. It is not helpful to others to dismiss something you don't understand.
You clearly do not understand the importance of recognising the Aperture Corners and loosening the oscillator.
The sound from the bell is the sound of vibrating air of which the lips engage with sympathetically, not the sound of the lips vibrating. This is where most people go wrong.
I don't expect everyone to embrace what I say and do but I can 100% guarantee that those that are having issues and take the time to change their psychology can make great changes needed to get the results that they want.
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:49 am Post subject:
hello Greg
i don't understand why you put on the same level the abdo contraction (which are expiratory muscles) and the tension in jaw, throat :
"You do not need to activate the abdominal muscles to play and you do not need jaw tension or throat tension."
of course we can play with a very low intensity abdo "activation", but not high nor loud.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:56 am Post subject:
Greg Spence wrote:
... the importance of recognising the Aperture Corners and loosening the oscillator. ...
-----------------------------------------
Yes, 'loosening the oscillator' (which I understand to mean having the lip aperture tissue ABLE to be vibrated by the air flowing through the aperture) is critical.
If the aperture tissue is overly tense, or unable to vibrate due to mouthpiece pressure, then no oscillations can happen and there won't be any sound.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
I agree, tension is necessary. But what is important is the psychological impact you have on a student. Once a decent breath is taken, the body is ready to RELEASE tension, not engage tension.
You do not need to activate the abdominal muscles to play and you do not need jaw tension or throat tension. Saying you need tension in the embouchure instantly creates unnecessary tension in the embouchure.
"Tension" isn't synonymous with excessive tension. What I've told the OP Saxo and what I would tell anyone is there needs to be as much tension as there needs to be to get the desired results - not too much, not too little and it needs to be in the right place, which is exactly how you and any other trumpet player plays. How you know you've got it right is when you get the results you want.
Based on what I've heard him say and seen him do, what focusing on the notion of "release of tension" in playing has done is to cause him to try and adopt an overly-relaxed setup, just like him trying to adopt some pre-determined lip formation some teacher told him to adopt had him trying to play with his lips in a configuration that doesn't work for him.
When you play any note there's muscular tension involved. For your embouchure to form in the first place, for you to moderately or forcefully expel air, for your tongue to make the constant changes needed, for your jaw to be in and maintain a playing position and make whatever changes are needed during playing it happens because of muscular action, i.e. tension. That's what muscles do. When you play higher or louder or adopt an effect like flutter tonguing, something has to change which in a human being is brought about by muscles contracting somewhere.
You can call me ignorant all you want, the above is an immutable fact.
Quote:
That is like saying you need jaw, throat and abdominal tension to talk...
You're providing example after example of why I have an issue with what I've heard you say.
While the act of talking isn't directly comparable to playing a trumpet, yes you do need muscular tension to talk. I would think this would be obvious. There's a reason why stroke victims can't talk normally when the muscles involved with speech become paralyzed. There's a reason why Christopher Reeve could only speak, and not like he could before his accident, when his ventilator caused an outflow of air, because his own muscles could no longer provide it and he no longer had the same subtle control over it than before he was paralyzed.
Trumpeter Jack Sheldon played some after his stroke but it wasn't remotely like what he could do before, and not just because of his right arm paralysis.
Quote:
I always find it astounding when people use the BEST players in the world to make a point. Clearly these amazing players can make it work as do many, many others. I am saying a lot of it is unnecessary and hinders tens if not hundreds of thousands of people.
You find it astounding. You think Doc in his prime could do what he did despite what I gather you regard as numerous flaws in the mechanics of his playing.
Seriously?
Quote:
I am sure you are a nice guy and I am sorry to use you as an example but I need to highlight what goes on at these forums.
What's going on in this case is my giving an honest assessment of what I observe.
_________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:28 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 127 Location: Queensland
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:35 am Post subject:
Hey Jay, thanks for the question. It was mentioned earlier that there needed to be embouchure, jaw and throat tension.
Okay, this is where people get unstuck. I use the word PASSIVE meaning complete disengagement of the abdominal muscles after the breath.
The abdominal muscles HAVE NO BEARING ON RANGE!!!
I know people struggle with this but I work with singers that are using too much pressure and when I sing low and high PASSIVELY, they are genuinely startled that there is no "body" activation; pitch comes from the vocal cords.
It is possible to play a blazing Low C with no engagement but as you ascend the notes get softer and it becomes more challenging to play long tones.
WHY IS THIS SO IMPORTANT?
The two biggest physical hindrances to windplaying are body overexertion forcing air and a tight oscillator. So, to ELIMINATE the problem, lets ELIMINATE the cause and see what we can do PASSIVELY.
No, you can't play all over the horn at full volume for long periods but that is not the point. The point is to find where NEGATIVE TENSION begins and to eliminate it.
If you watch the Extreme Exertion video again and really "get" what I am saying, you will begin to be able to notice where things become manipulated. THIS MUST BE DONE WITH THE EYES CLOSED.
I use the voice as a means to learn to recognise negative tension and of course this is not a flawless process as many people have very inefficient talking voices.
So, how do we combat this? Learn the sensation of a PASSIVE hum and then recognise that the lips interact with the air as if they are the vocal cords when playing.
MANY people reading this will not "get" it because it doesn't conform with their belief system and their current playing habits. HOWEVER, when a player of any standard, gets to the point of utter frustration and improvement is hard to make, like I did, they begin to look for reasons.
When they find the reasons for their issues, most people run away because they simply can't make the psychological shift to believe what I am saying.
I am my own guinea pig. I learnt this because I had to... OR simply give up.
Trust me, it is not easy living my life trying to convince people of this so eventually I stopped trying. I simply put my work out and those that embrace it fully, with an open mind and a rational understanding that to make a difference to the playing requires a change in thought process, get better results than they expect.
People are threatened by the DIFFERENCE. An awareness of how the system works and what the body needs to do is very powerful. Most people misunderstand the system thanks to years and years of contradictory methodologies and use too much body activation. It is this overexertion that causes the problems and I can prove it over and over and over in the face of seriously harsh criticism.
Playing an instrument can be a very emotionally challenging process and you only need to look around the forums to see the carnage that abounds.
Just trying to do my bit to make a difference and move the craft of brass playing forward. I have dedicated my life to it and will keep trying to advance the psychology of playing.
I hope that makes sense.
I wish I could have a WindWorks area here at TH to address these issues as they are occurring more and more often it seems.
Cheers,
Greg
P.S. Sorry Robert P, we must have been typing at the same time. We are actually agreeing on a few things but semantics are getting in the way.
The 2 things I'll get you to consider is that talking and playing can be identical and showing pictures of world class players hooking in on their horns isn't helpful for people having issues. GS _________________ https://mysterytomastery.com
Last edited by Greg Spence on Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:46 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:46 am Post subject:
Forgive me for breaking my commitment to keep silence. There is something I'd like to hear some opinions about.
To play trumpet efficiently we need as Greg and Jay correctly noted the "oscillator...having the lip aperture tissue ABLE to be vibrated by the air flowing through the aperture".
I've always had a feeling since I got the basic trumpet skills down (first 3 years or so) that my 'oscillator' was deficient in some way. Here are some details:
- I've got a large bulge on my top lip in the middle. It's less in size and more smooth than for instance great Vince DiMartino has:
However - once in the past I fell and hit the floor with my mouth. That accident resulted in the top lip bump to be deeply cut by the upper incisor right across the aperture point on the inside in the red part close to the lower edge of the upper lip.
When that rather wide and deep cut had cured after a month it developed into a hard knot - a scar tissue. It's always there now.
When I create my embouchure I see two things happening:
- The natural lip bulge itself gets located in the aperture center, which is not a BIG problem in itself - for instance, Vince DiMartino (and many others) uses an off-center embouchure to relocate his aperture point.
- My lip bulge is additionally "enhanced" by the scar tissue and it makes it twice as worse.
When I relocate the aperture point to the side of the bump I still get some part of the bump together with the hard scarred tissue in the way of the airflow.
For low to middle register I understand there is some potential to make that scarred bulge to vibrate when the aperture is wide. That's what I've achieved.
However once I approach the upper register - I've always felt that the aperture was closing down and the vibrations stopped no matter what I tried.
- I know of many great players who had scarred tissue.
- I know of many successful trumpet players who play to the side of scars/bumps/teardrops.
Most important of all:
- I'm not trying to find excuses for myself why I have poor results in range and inconsistent airy tone. I've been working hard to improve my trumpet playing skills over the years but if there is really a chance for the physical wall to exist - I would be rather educated and have understanding that I'm banging against the wall.
To really get to the point where my aperture would be free of the bulge/scar tissue I would have to move the MP radically to the side of the mouth but I don't think it would give me a good potential for development in the long run.
I'm sorry if with my theory I'll induce any comments in the spirit of "C'mon - man, don't fool yourself - just work harder (blow smarter, etc.)!"
I've tried to analyze why and how I developed a habit to move the whole embouchure shape down and stretch it apart when ascending.I came to a conclusion that instinctively that helped me to stretch the bump/scarred tissue of the upper lip to make it vibrate but there is only a limited amount of the lower jaw down-travel (to maintain the MP support) and at the same time upper lip stretching possible.
I now realize that instead of compressing the lips (in any manner -be it direct compression or working from the sides) I worked in the opposite direction to compensate for the lack of vibrating tissue.
As I was stretching my upper lip in that manner I was working from the corners to get some compression but this method is rather limited in terms of range.
Last edited by SaxoTrump on Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:41 am; edited 3 times in total
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:59 am Post subject:
Greg
i understand the "mind" of your words beyond them, but when i read your post i don't.
When i learned from Bobby the "Wedge", past the first not comfy sensations, it made things easier and more powerful. But it's true that you have to really understand it and master it not to put tension or too much pressure in your body, otherwise you lose all the benefits.
So, when i play at whatever pitch or dynamic, i use my respiratory muscles at various intensity (depending on register and dynamics) And the abdo are expiratory muscles. This is basic physiology that can be experienced by everyone
Well, maybe i don't understand fully because of my poor english.
Anyway, thanks for all the videos you're sharing !
best
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:03 am Post subject:
Saxotrump
yes you should try to move off center your mpc. Not everyone has the vibration point right on the middle, and sometimes due to lip shape, you must put the mpc off center to allow the air passing through freeer.
best
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:16 am Post subject:
JVL wrote:
Saxotrump
yes you should try to move off center your mpc. ...
best
I already tried that for the last 6 months - with NO positive results because as I noted above (quoting myself):
"To really get to the point where my aperture would be free of the bulge/scar tissue I would have to move the MP radically to the side of the mouth but I don't think it would give me a good potential for development in the long run."
Please note - as I explained above it's not a top lip bulge itself - it's the bulge "enhanced" with the wide scar tissue running across the red of the lip.
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:02 am Post subject:
Looking at this great girl I would say that there are no embouchure limitations and no embouchure problems that could not be solved but I'd rather approach every case on the individual basis.
By the way, to the argument of tension - see if you could spot much tension in here embouchure. She is just whistling on the side of her mouth! That's how relaxed she is.
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:44 am Post subject:
if the scar is where the lips should vibrate, since it's a harder tissue than the "normal" epiderma, the vibration will not have the same quality, things will be harder.
maybe try lip buzzing, with the finger tips at the points where the rim takes usually place, to reinforce the corners around your vibration point. Soft attacks, then with time, hold tones, then half scales, scales etc...
with enough rest between the sequences, not too long nor many repeats a day...
see also brad goode video of his warming up with the visualizer (i don't tell you to warm up the same, it's just for the info)
best
The 2 things I'll get you to consider is that talking and playing can be identical
Expulsion of air through vocal cords that are contained within the larynx that experience varying degrees of tension and are affected by resonance within the chest cavity, throat and facial structure and not encountering much resistance. Articulations other than those occurring within the vocal cords themselves occur downstream of the vocal cords. Much shorter distance from the vocal cords and exit point of the words spoken going through a chamber that's vastly different from a trumpet.
-VS-
The vibrating membrane - the lips - trapped between the teeth and a mouthpiece where varying degrees of pressure of the mouthpiece against the lips is a factor, where various parameters of the mouthpiece itself are a factor, with a very small portion of the lips actually involved with vibrating and blowing/buzzing into a small tube where the resonances of the tube are largely responsible for the available pitches with a very different back-pressure environment and a very different use of the expulsion of air. The chest cavity is involved but it's not the same.
There are some commonalities if viewed in a very broad way, some I touched on above, also the vocal cords vibrate but in a very different way than the lips in a mouthpiece and serving a very different functionality. When speaking there are articulations created by the lips, teeth, tongue, the oral cavity but again in a very different way functionally than when playing trumpet. When speaking the articulations are mostly created downstream from the vocal cords, when playing trumpet the articulations happen upstream from the lips.
Not seeing how they can be called "identical" any more than throwing a football and putting a shot could be called identical.
Quote:
and showing pictures of world class players hooking in on their horns isn't helpful for people having issues. GS
The purpose that I thought would be obvious is as a clear demonstration of tension when playing trumpet. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:43 am Post subject:
Robert - I think you are having hard time understanding Greg's philosophy because you are a successful trumpeter who needs no help in correcting or rebuilding your trumpet skills.
Let me try to explain it in simple terms.
Greg often mentions that there are many trumpet players who use excessive amounts of tension in their playing and they play through that tension fighting the horn and literally killing themselves. It doesn't apply to you obviously.
So, Greg's philosophy and method are based on discarding as much tension as possible to start re-building trumpet skills from the grounds up. He starts from the low C where basically no tension is required to play it (very little - just to hold the lips in place) and where many people with the excessive tension habits already use too much tension.
One of the core Greg's concepts to play in that pitch class - is to use "passive release" - basically it's simply a passive exhale.
That no-excessive tension skill of playing low C up to middle G needs to be completely re-built with absolutely new approach, new feel. Then he gradually builds up from there.
It's a hard and tedious process that requires constant self monitoring of one's actions/reactions/etc. People will tend to cheat themselves and return to their bad habits of excessive tension very easily through that process.
Imagine someone trying to quit drinking or smoking - it's quite easy to slip and start all over again.
Greg tells a story that in his masterclasses he asks people in the auditory to come on stage and while he plays in the high register he asks them to touch his abdomen to detect any push or tensed muscles.
When people (many of them are successful trumpet players) find no contraction or tension in that area they drop their jaw and exclaim:
"That's NOT possible!" - However Greg demonstrates it is possible.
Greg doesn't suggest that his method is "playing trumpet without ANY tension." His method is based on the philosophy of using only as little tension as needed.
Let me summarize it as follows:
- When rebuilding your trumpet playing skills - If you use not enough "proper tension" where it needs to be applied - find it and add as much of it as necessary. (Very easy to misinterpret but hence the Greg's method is developed to guide one through.)
However to start that process "clean" one first needs to discard almost all tension and be constantly aware of it.
Last edited by SaxoTrump on Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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