Went to a local pro for a lesson - confused and disappointed

[jscahoy]

Of course you need a (better) teacher to sort this out, but accepting for the moment that's not a viable option...

Have you really tried different embouchure settings, for extended periods? I can play left of center, dead center, right of center, mouthpiece high, mouthpiece low, horn angle high or low, etc. But only one way gives me my best range. I resisted playing that way for years, because it sounded like crap. So it couldn't possibly be right. Finally I got to a point where I was so frustrated, I didn't really care anymore. So I switched to that setting and stuck with it. Guess what, eventually it got better, and that's now my "natural" embouchure.

If you can locate a copy of The Balanced Embouchure by Jeff Smiley, I highly recommend it.

[Steve A]

Joining this thread - first off, I'm sorry that the lesson was such a bad experience, especially since you obviously care very much about trumpet playing. I think there's an element of luck involved in whether or not a given teacher is a good fit for a given student, and evidently you weren't lucky in this case. I know that feeling, and I know it's not a good one.

There are lots of different paths people take to improving their playing, but I think that, if you're willing to experiment, you'd equip the commenters here to be more helpful in addressing your playing challenges if you could post a few short videos. If you do that, you'll certainly get a bunch of different opinions, many of which won't agree or necessarily form a clear path forward - ultimately, this is where a good teacher would ideally come in, but since you've said that's not an option, you may get something that speaks to you and helps you move forward.

From what you've described - airy tone, and range problems - it sounds like there could be a lot of possible causes, which makes it hard to diagnose based on a written description, so a few videos could make a big difference. I'd suggest maybe 1. a scale covering the whole range you're comfortable with, 2. some lip slurs, 3. the first phrase or two of Arban Characteristic Study #1, and 4. 30 seconds of something you're comfortable playing.

A cell phone video would be sufficient, and it doesn't have to be perfect playing - it just has to be a window into how your playing mechanics are working, and what sounds are coming out. If you could get a perspective like this, or something close to it, you'd give us much more to work with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3OBjGU1RKU

[Vin DiBona]

If after all this time your sound is not very good, there is most definitely a problem with your embouchure. Good sound is paramount for a brass player. Once the sound is there, the rest will come.
Since you did not like that teacher - even if he was right - find another one or reach out to one of the players mentioned for a video lesson.
Clint "Pops" McGlaughlin http://www.bbtrumpet.com/clint-pops-mclaughlin/ has helped many players, including some well-known ones.
R. Tomasek

[SaxoTrump]

To everyone: I JUST realized what the pro meant when he evaluated my embouchure from his point of view.
I examined my lips formation - how they are made up genetically and I must admit - He was right about my "upper lip hanging like a rag".!

I also looked closely in the mirror when going above middle C and I clearly see what happens wrong. In short - the upper lip spreads down over the upper teeth and becomes a "waterfall" lip if I make up this term.

Let me try to explain it in words and may be later I'll add a drawing and maybe even a picture but the drawing is probably preferred because I can explain how the top lip is positioned in respect to the upper teeth.
Please... hold on...

In words this is what happens:
- I have rather long upper lip - in the resting position with the open mouth it extends down below my upper teeth approx 5 mm in the middle point.
- When I play up to middle C the top lip keeps its "blowing the candle" shape well.

However: When I go above middle C the top lip begins to extend downward and spreads down over the top teeth. I don't know why it happens!
It looks like with this downward upper lip movement I totally loose the cushion that I form for notes below middle C.

This is clearly some form of compensation! For what? - Lack of muscle strength?

Yes - visually to correct this I have to pull my top lip up and probably make a cushion - that's what he meant!
Nevertheless I'm sure that the conscious movement of the lip up as he prescribed is a very direct answer based entirely on how it looks and not taking into account my facial features i.e long upper lip.

I can't physically squeeze my lip up to a more compact form taking into account it's initial length.
I now see where his "I'll give you 4 more attempts" comes from. It's sort of "I'll through you into water knowing you can't swim but see if you don't sink and survive". That's not the way to go!

Is that clear enough?

[SaxoTrump]

I'm adding a picture below showing what happens to my initially long upper lip when I go above middle C.
The bright horizontal lines shown approx where my top and bottom teeth are. That is the top lip extends too much down and has no cushion and also - YES, it literally hangs down like a rag.

By the way, my bottom lip when my mouth is slightly open is way below my bottom teeth - that is my bottom teeth are positioned above the bottom lip line when I form my embouchure.

Let me try to explain why it happens as I understand it myself. To maintain the aperture - an opening in the middle I make this movement down. Otherwise if I tried to compact the top lip up it would totally close up the middle of my lips - it would be tight compression.
That's why I compensate by stretching it down.
I don't know what to do about it but what the pro advised me is not the solution.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ch0rk4R9G_qw064Z-KMxovM51ZJ8fh6P

Yes! - I can now clearly see what happens!
When my long top lip extends down in attempt to play upper notes it actually hangs over the top line of my bottom teeth and the aperture point is positioned over the top of the bottom teeth!
How bad is that?
I guess in this situation the air flow is completely misdirected.

And that's why I play sax and clarinet without any problem - there are no requirements for the aperture.

[Robert P]

[HERMOKIWI]

[SaxoTrump]

[SaxoTrump]

[JayKosta]

[SaxoTrump]

I just gave it more thought and I realize that the required change is not possible within 4 closely spaced lessons. It will probably take months.
Contrary to what I said before there needs to be a conscious effort to make this happen.

However - I would say that in this particular situation the top/bottom lips should work in pair and the bottom lip should take active part in relocating the aperture point along with correcting the top lip spread.
I don't mean the bottom lip should push the top lip up but the pair should work in unison.

OK, I admit I now understand what he meant when saying "Forget about the bottom lip." He tried to draw my attention to the upper lip position but did it somewhat awkwardly.

[kalijah]

[Denny Schreffler]

In specific response to two recent posts …

JayKosta provided a link to the Moriarty edition of Roy Stevens's book ← Tread with caution.

I have and I use the original Stevens-Costello book and I would never even talk about it – let alone recommend it for self-study – to anyone who wasn’t already playing at a “professional” level.


stickyvalves5900 mentioned George Rawlin and his video series. I recommended George and AirPlay (which I use) on the first page of this thread – Highly Recommended.

Interestingly, in the middle of his very successful career (I heard George end a solo ballad on a sustained, controlled, and beautiful A above DHC [triple high A] in 1968), George suffered a chop injury and was able to “come back” in a very short time through an intensive period of study with Roy Stevens. George integrates elements of Stevens-Costello into his “method” but is not didactic about it.

-Denny

[AJCarter]

[SaxoTrump]

I've made a rough drawing of my top/bottom lips movement when ascending.
As I described above the top lip stretches and gets totally spread down.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_nPHkhNVXkM4Mj0eCiZmJvXgjNU5z3wD/view?usp=sharing

I also asked a close friend to spread his lips a little and I was shocked! When he does that he has an equal amount of top and bottom teeth exposed!

When I do that My top lip - let me repeat - in the same condition goes way below the upper teeth so that to expose them I have to raise my top lip considerably.
Now imagine what happens when I pull it down?!

Ok, I now see that "No physical setup features matter" is a total nonsense.
Well, my top lip needs something to do with it to push it up. What?

How to display a picture from the Goggle Drive? Their addresses do not end with the image extension like .jpg - it's a different kind of specialized link.

[Robert P]

[Rod Haney]

I am hesitant to post this as his time is extremely limited and hard to book (his schedule is crazy) BUT a 1 hour lesson with Bobby Shew would give you some insights into playing. I never thought I would get on a bandstand by touting anyone as the expert but he is very well reasoned and understands it all from a working perspective. I got more out of an hour with him than 50 hours with others and I want more. But if you want the best I’ve seen at explaining the basics of sound and range he’s the guy imo. He does Skype and might go a long way in relieving anxiety and getting you to right path.
Good luck and keep up the effort.
Rod

[JayKosta]

[Crazy Finn]

A few things regarding this thread:

- I've always thought that trying to teach one's self from books like Claude Gordon and others is tricky proposition. It has nothing to do with the books themselves, but just a lack of a good instructor observing things. It's just far to easy for things to get off track if you don't have someone with a clue observing you. Reading this thread confirms this for me, again.

- There is a bewildering amount of tips, thoughts, suggestions, etc here. I'm once again convinced that doing so without having seen the student play anything and just trying to describe what's going on it is.... again a fraught proposition. I'm not even going to give any of my 2 cents on anything I've read here as far as that goes.

- I don't have a good suggestion for the current situation. I don't think the pro you have seen is very adept at teaching a beginner, at least. I think the OP would have been well served if they had taken a few lessons with someone who teaches beginning students from the very start to get them on the right track. This is one reason I wanted all of my beginner students to start their instrument with me in a lesson for the first time, not after trying stuff out at home. I guess we're past that now, though a somewhat lengthy break could provide a reset.

Anyway, good luck.
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[JayKosta]