Went to a local pro for a lesson - confused and disappointed

[SaxoTrump]

An add-on of 03.18.2020:
----------------------------
Before reading everything else related to my range (and not only) problem I want you to be aware that throughout the course of this thread and PM-communication with other people and giving it much thought I finally came to realization that my bad technique was a response, a walk-around to my physical set-up problem - I have a large scar tissue in the center of my upper lip right behind what is commonly known as a "teardrop" (natural tissue bulge). A common trick - to move a MP left or right of the teardrop does not help me because the scar tissue "knot" is rather wide and to really get it out of the way I'd have to play at the side of my mouth - which I'd rather not try.

Please refer to my posts in the specified order:
- Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:46 am (page #8 )
- Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 am (page #7 )
... for additional details on how I came to realization of the problem.

---------- Original post - NOT edited or modified in any manner -------------

Couple months ago I posted a thread about my playing difficulties that are mostly associated with my extremely limited range up to G on top of the staff.
Lots of you advised me to find a good teacher. I found a local pro who according to many local reviews was a real "chops doctor".
Today I had a lesson with him... my first and last lesson. I don't like his approach at all.

First of all - I've spent my last month on Greg Spence's playing philosophy and exercises (they don't help me so far but that's another story). Anyway - I like Greg's idea of relaxed tension-less playing and basically no emphasis on exact embouchure formation. Wasn't it Claude Gordon who said: "Forget about the lips" - ?

Anyway, what I was "taught" in today's lesson by the pro was completely centered around my incorrect embouchure formation. Nothing else!

What he told me:
- I rest my mouthpiece rim too much on the lower teeth - "You should have more upper lip support on the upper teeth!" - That is more mouthpiece pressure on the upper lip.
- I frown too much, my lips corners go down while they should be at least in the straight line like my mouth is at rest.
- I don't "engage" my upper lip - "It sags down inside the mouthpiece like a rag!", "Your upper lip should be tensioned and when you ascend it should be curled in and pushed forward inside the mouthpiece".

He tried to "correct" my frown embouchure by pushing the corners of my lips up with his fingers and instructed me to curl my upper lip and push it forward and it all resulted in:
- great tension in my lips
- very unnatural embouchure formation that I can't really maintain

The major comment he made he wanted me to ingrain into my memory was: "FORGET ABOUT the LOWER LIP! - IT IS JUST TO SEAL THE UPPER LIP FROM BELOW. ALL TRUMPET PLAYING COMES FROM the UPPER LIP - IT SHOULD BE TENSIONED AND CURLED IN. YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR UPPER LIP RELAXED".

He was seeing my inability to maintain the embouchure shape he requested and at the end of an 1 hour lesson he said that I'm "a difficult case he never had before".
He also added that it's worth trying to take 4 more lessons and if it doesn't help me I should be labelled as "incapable" of playing trumpet well - that is in other words "untalented".

I'm really confused and disappointed.
I better pursue the Greg Spence's principles for the rest of my life and possibly never have real success with the trumpet than agree to play that way with the tensioned and curled in upper lip and the lip corners drawn up - which I can't physically do!

The local pro is very busy in the city in all kinds of shows as a lead trumpeter and also teaching his more successful pupils who can naturally progress right from the start.
( Sorry - I'm a "unnatural difficult case" )

I remind you that I've been playing trumpet for the last 10 years and have had very little progress. G on top of the staff is my top note at best.
Greg Spence recently had a look at my playing video I posted to him and the only comments he made were: "Spend time on eliminating tension..."
- AND -
"Your lower lip is rolling back over the teeth as opposed to forward and out. I want you to imagine the air stream going upwards."

That's actually quite the opposite what the local pro told me today.
By the way this local pro as I noticed has very strong muscles around his lips and he plays with a great degree of biting for upper range - which I completely avoid but I can't play those notes at all. If I played his way I would destroy my chops completely.

[cheiden]

Sounds like you tripped onto a teacher that's really not right for you. Given your experience I'm pretty sure I wouldn't go back.

I suggest it's probably worth your trying again with another teacher.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[deleted_user_48e5f31]

Deleted by dfcoleman

[JayKosta]

[cheiden]

Just to mention it. I have great respect for Greg Spence and all he has shared. I've watched a bunch of his videos but confess that I've not actually tried to apply any of it, though it's something I might consider in the future. And while I can't speak to what Greg means by tension-less playing, there's no way that I think he means that the lips should be flaccid or flabby. And if your interpretation of tension-less isn't giving the desired results then you may indeed have to consider a different approach, though not necessarily this local pro's approach.

By way of comparison, Charlie Porter has a series of videos where he goes to great pains to define his embouchure setup. I think he spends time on the distinction between an embouchure that has the potential for playing higher versus an embouchure that is defined by unproductive tension.

You never know what you're going to see or hear that will ultimately lead to improvement.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[SaxoTrump]

Let me add one more comment on a concept that the local pro taught me today which I don't get - please comment!

So what he told me: "Your upper and lower lips are like tensioned strings of a guitar. They both have to have equal amount of tension. I see your lower lip is a string tuned up to pitch but your upper lip is a detuned string, it has no tension! You have to make it tensioned otherwise your upper notes won't speak.
That's what happens for notes up to middle C - your upper "sagging" lip is tensioned just enough to play them but for notes above the moddle C you need to add more tension in it". (and curl it in...)

I don't get his prescription at all: I form my natural embouchure shape just like blowing a candle or spitting rice and I don't now try to over-tension my lips per Grerg's method - I keep the 'Uuuh' shape intact and work with my corners for ascend, all my tension comes from the corners. I keep the middle of my lips relaxed, free to vibrate (it doesn't work for my upper notes like nothing else actually ever worked but I try to go with the Greg's method for now.)
How it affects the actual shape of my embouchure - that's beyond my control. Yes, I know that I frown but that's what naturally happens to me when I tension my corners. I can't raise the corners of my lips on request.
I also don't feel how I can curl my upper lip in to make it tensioned.

[SaxoTrump]

[TrpPro]

Get away from this teacher. He may be a terrific player but doesn't know deuce about teaching embouchure.
See if you can find someone who is familiar with the Caruso approach

[cheiden]

[Speed]

There are several teachers who post here - Jeff Purtle, John Mohan, Eric Bolvin and others - who are available for online (FaceTime, etc) lessons. You may want to check them out.

[HERMOKIWI]

Without seeing and hearing you and without being at your lesson I'm not going to assume that you've accurately described your embouchure, how you play or what the teacher said.

Obviously, you're very critical of what the teacher said but no one here has any first hand knowledge of what the teacher said or the context in which the teacher said it. The only assumption I'll make is that the teacher wants to help you improve.

There are no instant fixes on the trumpet. It takes a long time and a lot of playing to get to a level that shows you have ability.

From your description you're at the level of a beginner. You should be open to trying anything your teacher suggests instead of concluding from the beginning that it won't work for you.

Your teacher suggested 4 more lessons. What have you got to lose by taking 4 more lessons? You're ALREADY not making progress. There are no miracle advancements on trumpet. You have to be realistic.

You mention that this teacher is a busy player with successful pupils. If that's the case I find it very unlikely that this teacher cannot guide you in ways that will improve your results.

You need to be patient and you need to be receptive to what the teacher says. If you can't be patient and you're going to be receptive only to what you agree with then you're going to have difficulty getting along with any competent teacher.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[Dave CCM/SSO]

Hello,

I'm sorry to hear about your frustrating experience. I know how disappointing it can be to go see someone with high expectations only to find out it did't work for you.

I must say, however, that I think there is just WAY too much talk about the embouchure in your discussion. I honestly have no idea how anyone would be able to play even a single note while worrying about exactly which lip has a certain amount of pressure or tension, etc.

In my opinion, most of the great players and teachers in the world have one thing in common. They are able to produce beautiful sound and explain how to do so in the simplest of terms. They make it seem EASY!!!!

I'm not saying that it's easy to become a professional on any instrument, but there's a BIG difference between being a pro and simply being able to develop your range above g at the top of the staff. The vast majority of my students can approach high A and above within 3 years with a nice sound. This does require very consistent effort on their behalf, but the exercises are quite simple.

Are there times when the embouchure formation is severely limiting a trumpeter's development? Of course, but I find this to be a very small percentage of the time. And, even when this is the case, creating a completely new embouchure is also a very simple process as long as the student is patient. A clear, resonant tone IS NOT, and SHOULD NOT BE a difficult thing to achieve. In fact, the most beautiful, resonant tones are produced by musicians using the SMALLEST amount of effort.

I recommend finding a teacher that makes it seem easy!!

One final thought about the embouchure. It really should be formed by a natural process of releasing a steady stream of wind through a correctly positioned mouthpiece/horn and allowing the face to form in a way that lets the lips vibrate freely. Just breath in, and exhale a stream. Don't flex anything, don't blow REALLY REALLY hard, just let the wind go through the mouthpiece and listen for a clear sound. LET the facial muscles/embouchure form naturally around the clear tone and easy buzz. If you can't do that, you probably didn't start with enough wind inside of you, or you're trying to play higher than you are currently able to play. Go down to where it sounds good and be patient.

Best of luck!!

Dave
_________________
Dave

Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
- www.springfieldsym.org
Seven Hills Brass
- http://www.facebook.com/sevenhillsbrass

[SaxoTrump]

[SaxoTrump]

[Dave CCM/SSO]

Hello Again!

Without actually hearing you play, my final thought is that you may not be allowing your tongue to move up and down in your mouth while you ascend through the register. This "tongue arch" is what allows us to control the speed of our wind without forcing anything. My students begin playing out of Bai Lin's Lip Flexibilities book as soon as they are able to play 3rd space c. The first 4 exercises don't go above that note.

The key is to allow the wind to flow out naturally and to allow your tongue to raise and lower inside your mouth as you ascend and descend. I like to use the syllables "AH" "OOH" and "EEH" to help. If you can whistle, then you already know exactly how this concept works. This is how you can change the pitch of your whistling without tensing any muscles in your body. Playing the trumpet is similar.

The beauty of this book as that you can always begin on the lowest line in each set and work your way up.

Without Fail, my student's ranges begin to increase dramatically once they start to understand the feeling of the tongue arch being used properly.

Best of luck!

Dave
_________________
Dave

Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
- www.springfieldsym.org
Seven Hills Brass
- http://www.facebook.com/sevenhillsbrass

[Dave CCM/SSO]

Hello Again,

I'd like to finally add that I'm not suggesting trumpet playing is so easy that there's no need for a teacher. I'm suggesting that great teachers can explain the fundamentals of playing in such a way that it seems very manageable. It's not rocket science, and there's no magical system. It just takes knowing what to do, and the patience to do it.

It should be a simpler process than many realize, IMO.

Best of luck!
_________________
Dave

Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
- www.springfieldsym.org
Seven Hills Brass
- http://www.facebook.com/sevenhillsbrass

[JayKosta]

[B_Starry]

I can feel your frustration!
We really cannot help you without seeing and hearing you play in person first hand.

My advice: find a close-by professional teacher, not a player. Most commercial pro players are naturals and do not really know why they are successful. (Orchestral professionals are a different lot altogether.)

Hopefully a true teacher can diagnose your embouchure and suggest a corrective path to your desires.
Caruso students would be my first choice, with the advance acknowledgment that they might not exist in your part of the world.
Best of luck in your search. Do not give up hope!
_________________
do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God

[Denny Schreffler]

Pretty sure that you could find a fairly large subset of first class, commercial, lead players who would say that the “secret” to the upper register is the lower lip (and jaw). Same thing for pulling down the corners, i.e., frowning. The point to be taken from this would be that the didactic teacher should be ditched.

There are different ways to build sound, endurance, and range. Sometimes it takes a while to find the right teacher/method/approach to make things happen.

Of the many online possibilities for great teachers, some already mentioned, I have had personal experience (face-to-face or digital) with these ...

If you’re already comfortable with Greg Spence, get a Skype lesson from him; enroll in his Mystery to Mastery (WindWorks); then get another lesson with Greg after you’ve been using his method for a couple of weeks. See where that takes you.

Jeff Smiley’s Balanced Embouchure is terrific for the right student at the right time. I don’t know if Jeff gives Skype lessons but it would be very helpful in explaining some of his concepts and exercises. Check out the BE Forum to get a taste.

George Rawlin gives Skype lessons which would be very helpful in getting the most out of his AirPlay video series. His video course produces results. You just have to get past the unsophisticated production values of the videos and must understand that simple concepts are not simplistic.

Clint McLaughlin (Pops) is an embouchure mechanic as well as a conceptualist.

Eddie Lewis has a physiological training approach that can get the most out of anyone who has the discipline to adhere to the schedule. Start with a few Skype lessons.

None of these men are interested in producing “trumpet operators” – they focus on developing musicians with appropriately beautiful sounds.

Ditch the teacher.


-Denny

[HERMOKIWI]