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Stuck second valve slide and bottom valve caps. Help!


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deleted_user_6eba2e2
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:08 pm    Post subject: Stuck second valve slide and bottom valve caps. Help! Reply with quote

My 2nd valve slide is terrible stuck (doesn't budge at all) and all three of my bottom valve caps can't move either. I really need to clean my horn but I can't conceive a way to remove these parts without breaking the instrument. Any suggestions?
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deleted_user_6eba2e2
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there's already an existing post about this please tell me.

Last edited by deleted_user_6eba2e2 on Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure why you expect instant response.

Have you tried looking at existing threads? Use google search instead of the built in search. Add the search term “site:trumpetherald.com” to limit the search to this site.

Here is a thread found using “site:trumpetherald.com stuck bottom caps”
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deleted_user_6eba2e2
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you
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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bottom valve caps are easy. Don't use anything metal! The first thing to try is an old rubber bicycle innertube to increase grip. If that doesn't work, there is a well known method that has never failed for me: Using a plastic hammer, hit glancing blows into the knurling of the valve cap. Use an angle that pushes the cap counter-clockwise (loosening) direction. Use the biggest glancing angle that still puts a little impact to the cap. Like 45 or even more. Do a couple from one side, then a couple from the other. Make sure the knurling isn't being affected. I was so skeptical when I read about this, but it has worked every time so far, and works quickly.

Slides can be tough because one leg, the other leg, or both legs can be stuck. For the second valve slide, soak it down with WD-40 or similar. Then wiggle it and twist it in every direction while pulling. Even if you can detect no movement, it may be moving enough to let the WD-40 in. Don't wiggle with huge force, because it is pulling on the thin and relatively soft wall of the valve case. Don't give up too quickly just because there is no apparent movement.

If this fails, I use a soft cotton clothes line cord. Wrap the cord through the slide several times to distribute the force. Then anchor the bundle of cords. I just grab them in a bench vise. Now you can gently jerk the horn so that the pulling is in the proper direction. I try many smaller jerks first, like several dozen. Check for progress often and add WD-40 if needed.

The last stuck second valve slide I had was so corroded it came apart at the soldering. Soldering it back was easy. This was an extreme case though.

Many of these ideas are from here.
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:38 pm    Post subject: stuck second valve and bottom caps-help Reply with quote

Maybe you could try dripping a little penetrant on the seams of your 2nd valve slide and bottom caps. Let them sit for a period of time and then see if they break loose easier. There are two kinds of solutions that dry and stick things. Non water soluble and water soluble. Hot water generally works on water soluble but penetrant on other things. I have used it on instruments for over 50 years on silver and laquer and not damaged a surface. I am no tech for instruments for sure, but it works. Good Luck.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: Stuck second valve slide and bottom valve caps. Help! Reply with quote

Chenboi wrote:
My 2nd valve slide is terrible stuck (doesn't budge at all) and all three of my bottom valve caps can't move either. I really need to clean my horn but I can't conceive a way to remove these parts without breaking the instrument. Any suggestions?

Penetrating oil but not WD-40 or Liquid Wrench. WD-40 isn't penetrating oil at all and Liquid Wrench is only slightly better than tap water.

Hit them from inside and outside with PB Blaster and let it soak, reapplying occasionally. Only spray it outdoors and don't breath while you're spraying it - it's extremely noxious stuff with a very strong chemical odor. Good idea to wear protective glasses when spraying it too. PB Blaster is available at Walmart and most auto parts stores. It's the second-best option but it's readily available.



Even better is a penetrating oil called Kroil but you have to order it online. Comes in aerosol or a can with an applicator tip as pictured below. I have the one with the applicator tip which allows for fairly precise application. Also comes in larger cans. It also smells but not as strong as PB Blaster.


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Last edited by Robert P on Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAKE IT TO A REPAIR TECH!!.. before you make it worse.

For either a "Chem clean" or "Sonice clean". Most shops will unstcick slides and caps for no extra fee..
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Ronnman
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of this advise is dependent on your skillset. If you are not comfortable with these recommendations, take it to a tech.

Get one of the two penetrating oils mentioned PB Blaster or Kroil. Put a few drops on each valve cap edge where it threads into the valve body. Also, put a few drops on the seam (where it separates) of the 2nd slide.

Leave it set for 24 hours.

You want the remove the caps first, to get inside the 2nd valve casing, to apply penetrating oil inside the 2nd slide openings.

Then as mentioned in above post, tap the caps from the side with a plastic faced hammer. Use very light taps. You just want to shock the treads a bit. Try to remove the caps. Be patient, and repeat oil, time to penetrate and taps as needed.

Once you get the caps off, spray the inside of the 2nd valve slide. Work with the slide gradually. Usually the penetration oil will start to work. Also, an ice cube rubbed on the slide area may provide a little thermal shock.
Good luck.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watch out for penetrating oil. It does what it says and the smell will make you sick when you try to play the horn later unless you go to some extremes to clean the instrument including other solvents to pull out the oil.

Bottom line, take it to a professional who will have things right in a few minutes for a few dollars.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't worry about the stuck 2nd valve slide unless you know that it is severely clogged.
Remove all the pistons and other slides, then clean everything in warm soapy water (Dawn dish washing detergent is often recommended) and rinse thoroughly with plain water.
Using any tools (including rope) on a stuck 2nd slide is likely to cause damage that would need to be repaired by a pro.

Regarding tapping on the bottom caps - that should work.
The goal of the tapping is to just loosen the grip of really tight spots - NOT to actually rotate the cap with the hammer. You can also do some LIGHT taps on the very bottom of the cap - just to jiggle it a bit.
You might also ask someone with stronger fingers to try!

Jay
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Steve Hollahan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:26 am    Post subject: Pulling stuck second slide Reply with quote

Try threading a handkerchief through 2nd slide and popping. It should come out and handkerchief should keep it from flying across room.

A rawhide mallet giving glancing blows on caps will loosen them.

A trip to repair tech might be necessary.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
TAKE IT TO A REPAIR TECH!!.. before you make it worse.

For either a "Chem clean" or "Sonice clean". Most shops will unstcick slides and caps for no extra fee..


THIS.

Brad
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dfcoleman
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:42 am    Post subject: This is what you should do. Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
TAKE IT TO A REPAIR TECH!!.. before you make it worse.

For either a "Chem clean" or "Sonice clean". Most shops will unstcick slides and caps for no extra fee..

———

Yes. This is what you should do.

Dave
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duplicate post.

Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some towns don't have repair techs. Nearest tech for me is 90 miles away.

I've heard some concern that jerking with a rag can stress the valve casing if the slide is severely frozen.

For 2nd slide, get two wooden rods about 6" long and small enough to fit inside the slide crook. Might have to whittle the ends to get them to fit. Put something between the rods close to the slide to act as a fulcrum. Then pinch the other ends together. This will free the slide, or the wooden rods will break without horn damage. In the latter case, take the trip to the repair tech!
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bspickler
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:56 am    Post subject: How to remove stuck tuning slides Reply with quote

Art on The Brass and Woodwind Shop has several videos on how to remove stuck tuning slides. Here is one of the videos; there are several others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPYhVFxcMoY
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The handkerchief or rope thing can work on slides that are not too stuck. BUT BE SURE TO HAVE ALL THE VALVES INSIDE THE CASINGS WHEN YOU DO THIS. Also use as little pressure as possible. Distorting the casing can make a cheap repair into a major disaster.
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike ansberry wrote:
The handkerchief or rope thing can work on slides that are not too stuck. BUT BE SURE TO HAVE ALL THE VALVES INSIDE THE CASINGS WHEN YOU DO THIS. Also use as little pressure as possible. Distorting the casing can make a cheap repair into a major disaster.


I was going to wait for a "real" tech to respond, this is good advice.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptptp wrote:
Some towns don't have repair techs. Nearest tech for me is 90 miles away.

I've heard some concern that jerking with a rag can stress the valve casing if the slide is severely frozen.

For 2nd slide, get two wooden rods about 6" long and small enough to fit inside the slide crook. Might have to whittle the ends to get them to fit. Put something between the rods close to the slide to act as a fulcrum. Then pinch the other ends together. This will free the slide, or the wooden rods will break without horn damage. In the latter case, take the trip to the repair tech!


I understand, but I would make the 90 mile drive if necessary.
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