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FRANCIS MAZIERS Regular Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2020 Posts: 25 Location: France
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:04 am Post subject: Embouchure Functioning |
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After setting an embouchure between a "m" and "p", how is the best way to tighten, change stiffness, change the amount of flesh... in short, changing the physical characteristics of the lips in order to change pitch optimally?
Francis. |
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Noodly Regular Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2020 Posts: 16 Location: Florida
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I have been reading a lot about this. Some say, do not stretch the lips wider, but squeeze them together. This goes with the idea of "don't smile". But a different viewpoint is that pitch is controlled more by the speed of the air rather than muscle tightness. I tried this just with lip buzzing and was surprised that I could get a one octave slur just by pushing the air faster. |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1805
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: |
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After you make a sound, forget about the lips. Give it a couple years before you thing about them again or get a teacher. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Noodly wrote: | I have been reading a lot about this. Some say, do not stretch the lips wider, but squeeze them together. This goes with the idea of "don't smile". But a different viewpoint is that pitch is controlled more by the speed of the air rather than muscle tightness. I tried this just with lip buzzing and was surprised that I could get a one octave slur just by pushing the air faster. |
Pitch is not controlled by air speed. Pitch is controlled by varying resistance to the air stream. If you didn't increase resistance when you pushed the air faster the pitch would have remained the same only louder. You can play all pitches with a constant air speed by varying the resistance. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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There are 3 primary actions.
1. Roll-in
2. Roll -out
3. Press-together
My approach is to do as little as possible of all 3 as I ascend. AND to also BALANCE the 3 actions in a way that works best. My ideal balance is less of #3 and slighrly more of #1.
Those who are dominantly #2 in action tend to have more tongue movement as they ascend.
I used to play that way but had limited range and endurance until I played in a more balanced effort.
But you must practice such that it feels natural and not conscious. |
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deleted_user_48e5f31 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:37 pm Post subject: Get a teacher |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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dfcoleman wrote: Quote: | Connecting with one of your top-flight teachers makes a lot of sense. Skype or some other video platform is better than nothing, and right now it’s the only really safe option, but face to face is the best when that becomes available again. |
This is good advice and I don't think anyone offering their opinion here would discourage that.
Besides, you speak French but very little English. I speak English but very little English. |
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FRANCIS MAZIERS Regular Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2020 Posts: 25 Location: France
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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First of all thanks for all the people in this forum to share tips and point of view here. I think that everyone has to gain by sharing experiences and advices and by reflecting on certain dogmas repeated for decades!
I don’t think that French players are better than others. The majority of teachers are saying unfortunately the same things for decades: the air, the speed of the air is the key! Sing in your trumpet or you just have to think of the sound in your head, just blow etc...
For me these tips are too vague and seems to me like beliefs, magic’s, metaphysics!
But with these types of advices, many people fail to play the trumpet efficiently, like me for several years. I can see all around me people that have no range, endurance and good sound even with teacher’s advices for many years. They finally stopped, for many, the trumpet because it seems to be reserved for the most gifted!
I don't believe in magic, in the supernatural even if some people are more talented than others. On the other hand, I believe in working efficiently with practical instructions.
So I must thank Alabama for its advices which seems to me, in my eyes anyway, the most astute I have ever read!
Francis. |
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Skanker Regular Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2021 Posts: 24 Location: Isle of Man
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Francis
From my very limited knowledge and experience, it sounds to me like you might be interested in Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure. There's a forum here on TH
Andy |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:07 am Post subject: |
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You don't need to manipulate your lips while playing anymore than you need to manipulate your vocal cords when singing. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | You don't need to manipulate your lips while playing anymore than you need to manipulate your vocal cords when singing. |
This is confusing to me. I'm not certain what the point is that you're trying to make.
You have to manipulate your lips by moving/changing their relative position in order to change pitch. These movements are slight but they are movements nonetheless.
Similarly, changing pitch when singing involves movement/change in the vocal chords. Again, these movements are slight but they are movements nonetheless.
So, is your point that the necessary manipulation of the lips is as slight as the manipulation of the vocal chords or is your point that there is no manipulation at all?
If it is the latter it would be the same thing James Morrison is saying, that is, that pitch is determined by air speed and so to play higher you keep the lips the same and just increase the speed of the air. That simply is not the way it works.
In order to change pitch you have to change the resistance your lips place on the air stream. In order to do that you have to change something about the positioning of the lips by manipulating the lips correctly to produce that result. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3327 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:52 am Post subject: |
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FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote: | ...
For me these tips are too vague and seems to me like beliefs, magic’s, metaphysics!
... On the other hand, I believe in working efficiently with practical instructions. ... |
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You might get some useful information from my webpage about Embouchure -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
I have recently updated it with additional information related to the 'resistance' that HERMOKIWI mentioned. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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gtromble Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Mar 2002 Posts: 644 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Embouchure Functioning |
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FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote: | After setting an embouchure between a "m" and "p", how is the best way to tighten, change stiffness, change the amount of flesh... in short, changing the physical characteristics of the lips in order to change pitch optimally?
Francis. |
The best way is not to manipulate the embouchure that way. Focus on the sound and air and let the embouchure respond to the air. _________________ Galen Tromble
Silver Spring, Maryland |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | Billy B wrote: | You don't need to manipulate your lips while playing anymore than you need to manipulate your vocal cords when singing. |
This is confusing to me. I'm not certain what the point is that you're trying to make.
You have to manipulate your lips by moving/changing their relative position in order to change pitch. These movements are slight but they are movements nonetheless.
Similarly, changing pitch when singing involves movement/change in the vocal chords. Again, these movements are slight but they are movements nonetheless.
So, is your point that the necessary manipulation of the lips is as slight as the manipulation of the vocal chords or is your point that there is no manipulation at all?
If it is the latter it would be the same thing James Morrison is saying, that is, that pitch is determined by air speed and so to play higher you keep the lips the same and just increase the speed of the air. That simply is not the way it works.
In order to change pitch you have to change the resistance your lips place on the air stream. In order to do that you have to change something about the positioning of the lips by manipulating the lips correctly to produce that result. |
Not consciously
I'll be conducting a ZOOM session this Friday 2/26 7:00am CST.
This would be a great introduction to the William Adam routine as taught to me in 1982 by Mr. Adam.
bill bergren is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
Topic: bill bergren's Personal Meeting Room
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/9854582581
Meeting ID: 985 458 2581 _________________ Bill Bergren
Last edited by Billy B on Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Embouchure Functioning |
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gtromble wrote: | FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote: | After setting an embouchure between a "m" and "p", how is the best way to tighten, change stiffness, change the amount of flesh... in short, changing the physical characteristics of the lips in order to change pitch optimally?
Francis. |
The best way is not to manipulate the embouchure that way. Focus on the sound and air and let the embouchure respond to the air. |
_________________ Bill Bergren |
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Wilktone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:04 am Post subject: |
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When you're performing or rehearsing with others you shouldn't worry about your embouchure but just concentrate on sounding good. When you're practicing I feel it's best to understand how you're playing and whether or not it's correct.
When you teach I feel it's necessary to understand what's going on. I find that ignoring embouchure form and function misses an important piece of the bigger picture.
The correct way to play is different for different players. Everyone has a unique anatomy, everyone has a unique embouchure. That said, there are common patterns that can be described and when you understand which one you best fit into it will provide a road map of the physical mechanics you need in order to play at your best.
The following resource is not really designed for students, but for teachers. Still, you might find it interesting and it goes into more detail on what I wrote above.
https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619
Dave _________________ wilktone.com |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:28 am Post subject: |
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I'm in agreement that the embouchure setting should be automatic, that you shouldn't have to think about it. However, what should be and what actually is can be two different things.
If results are not satisfactory you need to be thinking about what is responsible as it's happening and adjust accordingly. Having a good understanding of exactly what works for you and what is happening when things aren't working is the key component to making adjustments in real time.
It can take a lot of time and a lot of repetition before things are automatic. Not thinking about your embouchure is a good way to ignore things you need to do to produce good results.
When things are not happening the way you want things to happen you may go through a period in which you have to force yourself to do the things you need to do to get good results. That's part of the process of building muscle memory. It isn't automatic until it's automatic. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:35 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | I'm in agreement that the embouchure setting should be automatic, that you shouldn't have to think about it. However, what should be and what actually is can be two different things.
If results are not satisfactory you need to be thinking about what is responsible as it's happening and adjust accordingly. Having a good understanding of exactly what works for you and what is happening when things aren't working is the key component to making adjustments in real time.
It can take a lot of time and a lot of repetition before things are automatic. Not thinking about your embouchure is a good way to ignore things you need to do to produce good results.
When things are not happening the way you want things to happen you may go through a period in which you have to force yourself to do the things you need to do to get good results. That's part of the process of building muscle memory. It isn't automatic until it's automatic. |
If that works for you, fine. But I certainly wouldn't advise it. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3327 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Embouchure Functioning |
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gtromble wrote: | ... Focus on the sound and air and let the embouchure respond to the air. |
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My understanding of that is -
'focus on the DESIRED RESULT (pitch, volume, tone, etc.) and use the embouchure and air to work together in production of the sound'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Wilktone wrote: | When you're performing or rehearsing with others you shouldn't worry about your embouchure but just concentrate on sounding good. When you're practicing I feel it's best to understand how you're playing and whether or not it's correct.
When you teach I feel it's necessary to understand what's going on. I find that ignoring embouchure form and function misses an important piece of the bigger picture.
The correct way to play is different for different players. Everyone has a unique anatomy, everyone has a unique embouchure. That said, there are common patterns that can be described and when you understand which one you best fit into it will provide a road map of the physical mechanics you need in order to play at your best.
The following resource is not really designed for students, but for teachers. Still, you might find it interesting and it goes into more detail on what I wrote above.
https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619
Dave |
Your article is excellent and thorough. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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