how do I connect the trumpet to electronic effects?

Fredde · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:23 am Post subject:

Hi!

I've been playing jazz for a few years now and would like to try to use some electronic effects such as wah wah and distortion pedals - but how do I connect these things?

I have a Beyerdynamic clip on microphone for trumpet and since I'm a guitar player I also have a Fender guitar amp and a wah wah pedal.

I heard that one way of connecting all this stuff was to connect the microphone to a pre amp so the signal get higher, then connect the effects to the preamp and then connect the amp to the effects:

Trumpet - Preamp - effects - amp

is this ok or should I do something else?

Thanks!

Fred

mulligan stew · Heavyweight Member Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 1846

check over in the Jazz forum--and do a search. We've had a good bit of discussion on this lately.

FatPauly · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:19 pm Post subject:

Fredde -

You basically have it: Trumpet -> Mic -> Preamp/Mixer -> Effects -> Amp.

I would suggest using a mixer since they have Effects/Aux send and return circuits which can make it easy for you to balance the effects. Also, you can get some interesting doubling sounds with this.

One caution about using guitar pedals - they are expecting a much higher impedance signal than your preamp will put out. Like 10000 Ohms vs. 600 Ohms. This will affect the sound you get out of the pedal, and probably not in a good way.

- Paul Artola
Ellicott City, Maryland

mulligan stew · Heavyweight Member Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 1846

I've found that a good preamp partially solves the guitar pedal-impedance issue. I use an Art Tube preamp, and run a line out of the Line-out 1/4" jack, and then into effects. I crank the Art Tube input volume about 3/4s of the way up, and the output to about halfway. This gives me a pretty hot line level.

pfrank · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:31 am Post subject:

Yes line levels can be fixed no problem and at any point in a chain that needs it. This is an important issue for all electronic instruments, but guitars and basses have the situation mostly taken care of as the effects are usually MADE for them (as well as hi imp. amp inputs). The problem with guitar effects--wah wah is a good example--is that they usually relate to the frequencies a guitar makes. So a wah-wah for trumpet should actually have a different pot to sweep the range trumpet is in--(I believe Miles' was built with that in mind)--that's why bass effects and amps often work well with trumpet too. (Bass amp combos sound great for trumpet--they can stand the sustained intensity and if there are tweeters, all the better, you can slice and dice with high frequencies) My Ampeg BA115 (100W, 1 15 inch speeker and one tweeter) is the most important tool I have, electronically. I have my own on stage monitor (tilts in front of me like a vocal monitor) so the vocals or whatever don't have to compete with trumpet, and the PA gets a line from the preamp. Ampegs have neat tone controls too; it can be put into 5 different pre-amp tone configurations as well as the usual tone controls; very useful if an acoustic space is boom-y or too reflective with high mid-range. (We all know that some rooms are krap for trumpet and some are golden) My amp helps recreate as natural sound as I can get before I add on the enveloped, ringmodulated ju-jitsu.

The worst effects for trumpet are the guitar multi effects pedals or rack mounts made for guitar. They can sound yucky (technical term) and inefficient for trumpet. Unless there is an equalizer...(like I have in a Korg bass multi effect) but even then, multi-effts can be noisy... Always remember: the longer the effect line is the less true sound is left. So I avoid on stage mixers whenever I can, KISS: keep it simple, stupid.

Digital reverbs are better because they are made for everything and usually include an equalizer (even $200 ones) so the high end hiss can be eliminated. Good ole' analog delay (as a not-too-short slapback) is a very good effect for trumpet--it's frequency responce is more natural (high end roll-off just like in a room).

[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2003-12-23 10:17 ]

Fredde · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:48 am Post subject:

Thanks a lot! This really made it more clear! A few more things though;

I have a guitar amplifier that is made for Electric guitar (100W Fender amp) and not accustic - I've heard that this is a bit of a problem considering the signal form the preamp.

I've found a Art Tube Preamp in a local music store so that shouldn't be a problem to get, however does it work well in live situations?

I hardly ever record, however I do play live quite often with my band so I need this stuff to work in a live situation, sorry if I didn't tell you this before, but do I need something else to get it to work well live?

Lastly, because of the 'problems' with the signal, are there any dangers such as damaging the equipment (mic or amp) or is it just affecting the actual sound coming out of the amp?

Again, thanks a lot!

Fred

[ This Message was edited by: Fredde on 2003-12-23 09:51 ]

pfrank · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:34 am Post subject:

Live, the first issue is feedback...how to be loud enough without feeding back so you can hear yourself over other amplified instruments. The reason you need matched line levels (and a guitar amp is high impedance) is so that you are amplifying your trumpet sound and not line hiss...

Put an amp behind you and you are asking for feedback...(even with a pizzo pickup) unlike guitar where the distance between the bickup and the string is millimeters and your body is in front of the amp...That's why PA speekers are to the side and below...a good rule for live application is that any on stage amp is a monitor for You Only...let the PA get the signal and do the work pushing sound to the audience.
If your Fender doesn't have a line out you'll need a direct box (converts high to low or line level impedance) to split your signal so it can go high to the amp and low to the PA. Most clubs have direct boxes and most of them are lousy passive ones. Better to have your own powered direct box. If it is a small party gig or a club in the hinterland that has a 2 channel PA, and your amp is IT for your sound, you'll have to position the amp to the side or somewhere...
I once got a good sound using an old fENDER Twin: there is enough speaker surface to handle the trumpets warmer frequencies. But think about keybords: they never use guitar amps, they use a bass amp with a horn tweeter. It's so simple to amplify a little high frequency steel string, doesn't take much compared to a trumpet! (unless you have no body to your trumpet tone and sound like a razor blade)

[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2003-12-23 10:51 ]

Fredde · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:51 am Post subject:

Again, thanks a lot for all this information!

Yep, my Fender does have a 'line out' (a normal teleplug), so basically, I just connect my effects, and then connect the amp to the PA system using the 'line out'?

Trumpet - Preamp - effects - amp - PA

Otherwise I'll just put the amp to the side and try to make the best out of it...

Thanks
/Fred

pfrank · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:06 am Post subject:

Yes to your chain order if by "trumpet" you meant trumpet AND pickup/mic.

But it depends on what that "line out" is. A sign of line level is a cannon connector--the same as PA mics use. Don't know what your "teleplug" is. Is that like the telephone jack? If you mean a 1/4 inch plug, a direct box will still be needed just to get into the PA. A 1/4 inch line out would work for studio (or Porta-studio) inputs. Not PAs generally.

Then what is the sound quality out of the amp's line level output? A decent direct box could be mucho better. (Again, it might be built for guitar!) Some amp preamps are niosy and or thin sounding or might create an impedance loop onstage (why there are "ground lifters" and polarity changers and such). Just listing what Could go wrong here...Murphy's law and all...have fun too!

[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2003-12-23 11:10 ]

mulligan stew · Heavyweight Member Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 1846

Pfrank is right on. To answer some of your other questions:
I use exactly the same equipment live as I do in my home studio, recording. In a real recording studio I would use these effects in an isolation booth with phones to avoid feedback.

I go: clip-on mic>preamp> ernie ball volume pedal> loop station>digitech multi-effects box>sometimes a few other gtr pedals>mixer>amp, monitors and main.

I agree that these multi gtr boxes are a pain, but the digitech I have--around $100 US--has been okay and I have learned to tame the feedback (one of the keys is, don't use any of the amp modellers)--i stick to effects, delay, reverb, and wah.

at the risk of stating what I know I said somewhere before--you can hear this set-up at

http://www.vectortrio.com

Fredde · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:53 am Post subject:

Hi!

Sorry, my English isn't the best, with a 'teleplug' I mean the sort of cable that you would use for an normal electric guitar, don't know what that's called in english...

Also, that's the sort of cable that my piano player use for his digital piano which he use to connect to the PA. Doesn't that mean that I should be able to connect my amp to the PA as well?

thanks

/Fred

[ This Message was edited by: Fredde on 2003-12-23 12:00 ]

pfrank · Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:28 am Post subject:

The typical guitar chord has a quarter inch (1/4 inch) plug because it's a 1/4 inch wide...and it's grounded (unlike a speaker cable)
Not to be confused with cannon connectors, midi cables, RCA plugs, mini plugs...

If you are Just using that PA that has 1/4 inch inputs, then you are probably fine, 1/4 inch inputs are usually set for high impedance. Try your amp's line level output or just use a line spliter (one in, two out) to the PA...(I use either a Morley 1 to 2 box or an effect with 2 outputs) which ever one has the best impedance match with the PA will the the least noise (unless it's a noisy amp preamp. in there) and most good signal. The amp preamp might actually be a lower "line level" and not as good sounding as a direct from your effects.

I was talking about playing in clubs etc, where you are using the house PA...Some are big 10,000W beasts and will only take cannon plugs, and anything niosy in your system will be amplified to distraction. Some are the portable variety that might have 1/4 inch capability. With a big house PA system you'll need a direct box, but it's one of the least expensive things to get...

Fredde · Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 7:52 am Post subject:

ok, I think I start to understand these things now...

Thanks a lot to all of you who explained this to me!

/Fred