| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
m1tch
Regular Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2020
Posts: 18
|
 Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:43 am Post subject: Tuning slide always needed? |
 |
|
Hi all,
Just having a go with using the main tuning slide on my B Flat trumpet, using the tuner with the slide all the way in and one of those online tuners, moving the tuning slide out doesn't really make any difference unless I put the slide a long way out with not having the slide out at all seemingly the closest setting to whichever note its aiming for.
Is the tuning slide always needed or is it just something that is used to be in tune with others?
Edit:
Here are the Hz I get for the C major scale with the tuning slide all the way in (although 3rd valve slide is out for D):
C - 235Hz
D - 262Hz
E - 295Hz
F - 315Hz
G - 345Hz
A - 390Hz
B - 415Hz
C - 465Hz |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tuning to the other players is the primary purpose. Also your 'natural tendency' changes after playing for several minutes (or more) - I think most brass goes sharp. Environmental temperature has an effect.
Use the electronic tuner as a guide, but being 'in tune' with the other players is more important.
Listen, push it in, pull it out - put it back to where it's been for the last 20 years.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| You are right, the tuning slide has no function at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Two things.
You can play any pitch on any trumpet regardless of the position of any of the slides, or valves for that matter. But there are very specific tubing lengths that produce any particular pitch best (most clear, best tone, least effort). Any other length requires various degrees of additional effort.
And musicians almost never refer to frequency (Hz) to describe tuning. Most all available tuners measure in cents with one cent equaling one one-hundredth of a semitone.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| delano wrote: | | You are right, the tuning slide has no function at all. |
When I remove my tuning slide I find that I play fewer wrong notes.......at least out the bell.
There's a joke about a guy playing trumpet in a band doing a gig at a rural Elks Club. The house piano is extremely flat so all the players have their tuning slides all the way out. Between sets the players are visiting the bar and getting more and more loaded. By the beginning of the third set our trumpet player is so loaded that he can hardly find the bandstand. The music starts and our trumpet player stands up to take a solo, not noticing that his tuning slide has now fallen out of his trumpet. He tries a couple of notes, looks bewildered and then looks at his bandmate and says, "Take it man, my chops are gone."
_________________
HERMOKIWI |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
multiphonic
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2019
Posts: 139
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JayKosta wrote: | | Listen, push it in, pull it out - put it back to where it's been for the last 20 years.
|
Funny how that works.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bspickler
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Denver, CO
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was just looking at those frequencies. A concert A (B in Bb pitch) would normally be 440 Hz. I think the Europeans some times deviate from that slightly. Your concert A is shown as 415 Hz which would be quite flat. What else is going on with your horn? Are slides pulled, is it cold, are you using the right mouthpiece, is it a Bb pitch instrument?
_________________
Bill |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lipshurt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2642
Location: vista ca
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Beyond16
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 220
Location: Texas Gulf Coast
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| multiphonic wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: | | Listen, push it in, pull it out - put it back to where it's been for the last 20 years.
|
Funny how that works. :P |
That's because the pitch depends on speed of sound in air, and the speed of sound in air is mostly a function of temperature and not on anything else like pressure (altitude). We recently took a vacation in the mountains and I brought my cornet. The tuning slide was fine where it was, even though potato chip bags from home were bulging when we arrived. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dershem
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1887
Location: San Diego, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, you should use your tuning slide. I mean... lead pipe buzzing is a good warmup, but if you wanna play the horn, use the leadpipe.
And your ears.
_________________
BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8951
Location: Monument, CO
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Heim
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 181
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Tuning slide always needed? |
|
|
| m1tch wrote: |
Here are the Hz I get for the C major scale with the tuning slide all the way in (although 3rd valve slide is out for D):
C - 235Hz
D - 262Hz
E - 295Hz
F - 315Hz
G - 345Hz
A - 390Hz
B - 415Hz
C - 465Hz |
When you say B are you using the German term? Then you are mostly a little flat but like someone else said there can be other factors besides length affecting the pitch. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Heim
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 181
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cheiden wrote: |
And musicians almost never refer to frequency (Hz) to describe tuning. Most all available tuners measure in cents with one cent equaling one one-hundredth of a semitone. |
I believe that he was referring to the actually frequency of the pitch. Cents only refer to degrees within a half step. No one ever says that you are 125 cents sharp. The tuner would call it the next note. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JWG
Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Posts: 258
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Based on a 440Hz Concert "A", here is how your numbers should compare on an equal-tempered scale:
C - 235Hz should be 233.08Hz (almost spot on)
D - 262Hz should be 261.63Hz (100% in tune)
E - 295Hz should be 293.66Hz (almost spot on)
F - 315Hz should be 311.13Hz (a little sharp)
G - 345Hz should be 349.23Hz (a little flat)
A - 390Hz should be 392.00Hz (almost spot on)
B - 415Hz should be 440.00Hz (half step flat as concert G#/Ab is 415.30)
C - 465Hz should be 466.16Hz (almost spot on)
Very interesting results . . . I need to try your experiment . . . thanks for sharing!
_________________
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
m1tch
Regular Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2020
Posts: 18
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JWG wrote: | Based on a 440Hz Concert "A", here is how your numbers should compare on an equal-tempered scale:
C - 235Hz should be 233.08Hz (almost spot on)
D - 262Hz should be 261.63Hz (100% in tune)
E - 295Hz should be 293.66Hz (almost spot on)
F - 315Hz should be 311.13Hz (a little sharp)
G - 345Hz should be 349.23Hz (a little flat)
A - 390Hz should be 392.00Hz (almost spot on)
B - 415Hz should be 440.00Hz (half step flat as concert G#/Ab is 415.30)
C - 465Hz should be 466.16Hz (almost spot on)
Very interesting results . . . I need to try your experiment . . . thanks for sharing! |
Thanks for that, mines a B Flat instrument but its a beginner/student instrument so I wasn't expecting perfect tone etc, also using the basic 7C mouthpiece.
Interesting how I am fairly close, was trying to find the right Hz for each note - I know that the tuners aren't set to recognise a B flat instrument so will show the concert A notes.
These notes were after I had gone though warm up and had played a couple of beginner tunes etc.
Will be interested to see how low I can go, think low F sharp is around 185hz I think.
I have only owned a trumpet for just over a week so I have much to learn! Can only really get up to a middle D currently, will take a while before I can go into the upper register - was more of an interest to see how close my current notes are to where they should be with the current setup out the box.
The good news is that it seems that I am slightly flat so I will look to pull the slide out slightly to sharpen it and see how that works, I know only tiny difference to the slide can make quite a difference. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rapier232
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 1323
Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
You push IN if you are flat, and pull out if you are sharp. 
_________________
"Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
beagle
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Posts: 419
Location: Vienna, Austria
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| m1tch wrote: |
The good news is that it seems that I am slightly flat so I will look to pull the slide out slightly to sharpen it and see how that works, I know only tiny difference to the slide can make quite a difference. |
You should push the slide in to sharpen it not pull it out!
Note however that all your notes were pretty much in tune except for B which was a semitone flat. Perhaps you were actually playing a Bb (first valve) rather than B (second valve).
As another poster alluded to, this could be because you or your tuner are using the German system of note naming where B in German means Bb in English and H in German means B in English. This is horribly confusing but at least it allowed BACH to write his name as a musical joke in one of his pieces.
_________________
Schagerl Sig. James Morrison
Selmer Paris Chorus 80J |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="m1tch"] | JWG wrote: | ......
The good news is that it seems that I am slightly flat so I will look to pull the slide out slightly to sharpen it and see how that works, I know only tiny difference to the slide can make quite a difference. |
What???
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
m1tch
Regular Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2020
Posts: 18
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lowest note I can play with all 3 valves in is at 120hz - its coming up as a B2 on the chromatic scale.
I think I might keep the tuning slide all the way in initially - sounds good to me at the moment, and yes as a beginner I guess I might have messed up the valve - good to see that its out by a semitone though!
Edit - yes it was a newbie mistake, middle B comes out at 439.96Hz - so fairly close to the 440Hz target I would say! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| m1tch wrote: | Lowest note I can play with all 3 valves in is at 120hz - its coming up as a B2 on the chromatic scale.
... |
---------------------
The lowest practical note is the F# (played 123) below the staff.
It's possible to 'sound' lower pitches by 'controlled lip flapping' but you're not likely to see them written in any piece of trumpet music. And they don't fit into the physical acoustics of trumpet size and shape.
When playing low notes (e.g. below the staff A - F#) the difficulty is making them sound good - not just loud fat blats - which can be fun, but is not very musical.
And similarly, many music pieces end with a loud note (sometimes a short 'stinger') - those should also be played to sound 'good' - not like someone stomping on a frog!
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
