valves in right place and direction but trumpet out of tune

[anna_trumpet]

Hey everyone,

I am new here, I'll post an introduction post soon. I have a problem with my trumpet that I don't know the technical terms for, so bear with me if it has been posted on earlier.

The issue is that since I oiled the valves last week, the whole trumpet has sounded bad. I've checked that the valves were in the right places and also in the right direction.

What happens now is that when I play a middle G, it sounds like the C below, as if my embouchure and air support aren't right. I'm sure that these aren't the problem though, since in the weeks before I've had no issue with them (I'm learning to play the trumpet as a beginner). This also happens with other notes.

Also, the tones sound less stable, and generally a bit lower I think.

I'm so disappointed, because I really love practising and want to keep improving. It sounds so bad now though that I've quit for a while to spare my neighbours and to try and fix the problem.

Does anyone have any idea what might be causing this and how to solve it? I'd be so happy to get back to playing. Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

[JayKosta]

Check again that the pistons are installed properly.
1) Each piston in the correct valve case.
2) There is usually a round 'valve guide' in about the middle of the piston. Typically there are 2 small 'tabs' of DIFFERENT SIZE that need to set into notches inside the valve case - the notches are also of different size, so it is vital to get the tabs into the correct notches. Sometimes the small tab will click into the large notch, but that is wrong. Look into the casings to see where the small and large notches are located, and make sure you install the pistons so the small tab goes into the small notch, and large into large.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[HERMOKIWI]

If you had no problem before and the problem suddenly appeared then something mechanically changed. If all you did was remove the valves, oil them and put them back in the horn then the obvious conclusion is that you put them back incorrectly. Most likely they are not in their correct valve casings. Usually valves have the number 1, 2 or 3 stamped on the barrel so you can easily see which valve goes into which casing. Check that first.
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HERMOKIWI

[Christian K. Peters]

Hello anna,
Welcome to the TH...Sounds like a spitvalve cork went sideways. Or something went down the bell by accident. I would take the horn apart, snake it, inspect the slides as you put it back together and see if the problem persists.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

[kehaulani]

But I would begin just with checking the valve placemrnts. That's what went through my mind while I was still just reading the title.

By the way, Anna, don't be a stranger around here. While we can get a little rambunctious from time it's not anything to be feared, . We'll help you all we can. Cheers.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[FrankM]

Remove the 2nd valve tuning slide. Depress the valve to see if the ports in the valve align with the slide tubes. If they do then you know the 2nd valve is installed correctly. There's a chance the 1st & 3rd valves are in the wrong casing. Try reversing them. Cheers.
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Eclipse Bb Tpt
Yamaha 6335H Bb Tpt
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Selmer 99 Radial
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Conn Connstelation 28A
B&H Sovereign Cornet
Yamaha 635T Flugel Horn.

[anna_trumpet]

Hi everyone,

Thanks all for the suggestions.

I'm sure the pistons are in the right casings and in the right directions.
I searched for a picture of the types of pistons/valves, on the right picture the second piece from the bottom is the valve guide I have, the white plastic one:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Trompette_-_premier_piston_-_montage_perspective.jpg

The pistons are in the right casings, with the numbers on the valves facing the mouthpiece, so that should be fine. To check, what I've done is: put the piston back in *almost* the right direction, then slowly twist further into the right direction until I hear a soft click. Looking at the picture above, it seems to me that with this way of doing it, the tabs have to be in the right notches, correct?

I'll have access to a snake tomorrow, so I look forward to trying out your suggestion Christian Peters, thanks!

[anna_trumpet]

[quote="FrankM"]Remove the 2nd valve tuning slide. Depress the valve to see if the ports in the valve align with the slide tubes. [/quote]

Hey Frank,

Thanks, I've checked this: when depressed, both tuning slide openings are 'open' because they align with the holes on the valve - so should be solid. When not depressed, the upper opening is partially open because partially aligned with one of the holes on the valve, but that is impossible to prevent since it needs to align with the lower opening fully, when the valve is depressed.

I couldn't find a guide on this, but it makes sense to me that this should be in order, too.
Also tried if perhaps numbers should face the other side on this trumpet, but the tabs don't click into the notches if twisted like that, so they have to be properly in place as they are now.

Hope the snake is going to make a difference! Thanks for thinking along everyone!

[JayKosta]

'Maybe' the numbers on the pistons can be used to determine the proper rotational position, but do look into the cases to see which notch is large and which is smaller - that is the important part.

Check the spit valve corks. If yours has 'push button' spit valves - use a ball point pen to press inward on the back side if the the button is stuck IN. With lever spit valves, sometimes the spring breaks, or one of the "legs' gets unhooked from the side supports.

Remove the main tuning slide and look thru the mouthpipe to verify it is not blocked.
It is typical for the mouthpipe to accumulate a lot of gunk (goo, food particles, etc.). You'll need a swab, or cleaning rod of some sort to GENTLY clean it.

Use a flashlight to look thru the bell to see if anything has fallen in there.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[kehaulani]

And if all else fails, just take it into a tech. S/he would probably find the problem on the spot and the cost would be minimal. They might even do it gratis if you look helpless enough.

If you do, make sure that, before you leave, you understand completely what the problem was and how to fix it.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[HERMOKIWI]

If the valves are all in the correct valve casings and they're all facing the correct direction then the problem is somewhere else, most probably an obstruction. The most probable obstruction point that you can't just look and see is the point at which the tubing first enters the third valve casing (just after the main tuning slide). Gunk in that area messes things up big time.

Also check your mouthpiece to make certain it doesn't have a partial blockage.

The perplexing part of this is that it happened suddenly. Usually that indicates a mechanical problem instead of a blockage (since blockages usually build up over time). However, some gunk could have come loose all of a sudden and lodged in a way that it's blocking a tube.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[spiker97]

One thing I will always tell a beginner is to only take out one valve at a time to oil it, and then put it back in. That always helps cut down on misplaced and misaligned valves (I think every new player does that once) but I think that this is a more serious problem. What type (make and model) horn do you have? Is it a plastic one? That this happened suddenly is a clue.
_________________
When the spiker speaks, nobody listens
but everybody reads

When he is playing is another story

[HERMOKIWI]

To the OP: Let us know what it turned out to be. It's quite a mystery based on what you've told us.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[anna_trumpet]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for keeping the suggestions coming. I'm gonna have to wait a bit longer until the snake arrives, so then I'll let you know what happened.
I have a beginners' trumpet, a Levante TR 6315, with a lever spit valve.
I've looked into the bell, there seems to be nothing there.

When I started playing a year ago, the same problem occurred - after say 1-2 months of playing, it felt heavier, less open, and notes seemed to have a life of their own (also after oiling I think), it bummed me to the point that I quit for the time being. When I resumed practice again 1-2 months ago, all was fine again, until now. Strangely, sometimes tones sound extra 'piercing' rather than muffled/dull - I'll see if there's a division between tones, or if it's a result of blowing harder into the trumpet sometimes.

I played today and yesterday, and it's *possible*, but not enjoyable, plus with a smaller range.

VERY much looking forward to solving this, will keep you updated and thanks again!

[ayryq]

I suspect any experienced trumpet player or band director could figure this out in about 5 minutes. Maybe post your approximate location and someone will volunteer.

Eric
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Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet

[HERMOKIWI]

[tomba51]

Besides all the other excellent suggestions that have already been made, also check your water key. Sometimes the cork in the water key falls out, and the resulting air leakage causes the horn to sound very strange indeed.
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Tom Barreca

[Beyond16]

I can think of two things that as a beginner, make me just want to quit playing out of frustration. One is a small air leak. It kills the tone quality and resonance in the strangest ways. Air leaks are more of a problem on older horns. But as so many have suggested, make sure the water key(s) are not leaking.

The other thing is tired out lips. It makes the tone awful. Sometimes it improves late at night for me, and other times a day or two is needed.

It sounds like your valves are in correctly. But just in case, a quick sanity test for valve installation: blow air through the instrument with no mouthpiece. It should be much easier than blowing with the mouthpiece. Then press all 3 valves. It should be only slightly harder to blow, due to the extra tubing length the air travels through.

One more valve test: Remove all 3 valve tuning slides, but leave the main tuning slide in. Open fingering notes should be unaffected.

[anna_trumpet]

Short update - instead of my snake, today I received an Akai Force DJ studio set in the mail (€1000,-). So the cleaning will have to wait a little. Tomorrow I'm calling a repair workshop to ask for ideas. (Spit valve seems to still be perfect).

[Andy Del]

You have already hit the answer, which is it is not your trumpet (even if a cheap and cheerful(ish) model.

Horns do not fix themselves, so it is you and the habits you a period of practice. Your time off allowed you to forget the poor habits and play a little better.

And now you are back in the same place. Go find a good teacher and get some guidance. There are now literally thousands teaching online and you will get help here from a competent one.

Cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...