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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 11:21 am Post subject: Wats the deal??? Articulation that projects |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQbmhdKigUQ
Watch from the 11 minute mark. The difference between the very talented students and Tom Rolfs is astounding. He doesn't seem to be playing any louder, but his articulation projects so much more. What is he doing? How can I develop this? |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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He isn't playing softer, not that I can hear, but the opposite.
He is playing with certainty and at the correct dynamic to be heard properly in an audience.
The students, while good players, seemed a little intimidated and backed off, and also seemed as if they weren't as familiar with the piece as he is (imagine that). Thus, they lacked the certainty that comes with experience.
But to answer your question, practice getting an articulation that seems to pop and gives an instant response and clear sound. If needed, this can be accomplished on a gradient from breath attacks to "poo" attacks to tongued attacks. It can take some time, so don't be discouraged if it doesn't happen over night. It is the attack that sets the stage for the rest of the note. It is very difficult to recover a note that has a poor articulation, but easy to back off and still be heard when articulation is clear. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Troy Sargent Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2012 Posts: 205
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Rolfs gives a hint at the end of playing with the student the Ta Ta Ta Ta Ta he does with his air. He’s using a different articulation quality than the student. Apparently the student was also working on it.
Remember that articulation is caused by a sudden release of air. A “T” sound seems to work the best to serve as a valve to suddenly release the air for an articulation
Well what “t” sound should we use? There are 5 of them in English and only one of them will give you the articulation quality that you want. You are looking for what is called an “aspirated t” which appears at the beginning of words like Table, Took, or Touch.
Ive found with my students however, that if you say hoT you get the best possible T sound.
Say: hoT > ot > T > Ta > Too(with air like you are playing) and keep the T sound the same each time. It’s more challenging than you might think. Try and match the “point” on each one like Rolfs.
This kind of fundamental practice will set the articulation then you need to incorporate it in your playing. Ive also found that using an app where you can see the waveform and see if it “pops” into existence making a shelf. If you see a football shape it means that you are getting a “slow” articulation instead of a point
This level of articulation also isn’t going to be possible unless your lip is ready to vibrate instantly which requires a level of refinement in embouchure and care that is well developed. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum. _________________ www.tsargentmusic.com |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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I think he has a microphone on his shirt and that is why it sounds different. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2331 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, to the first couple of replies - NO the microphone didn't make it sound that way..
It's not the articulation that projects, but the immediate tone right after a quick, clean, appropriate articulation. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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I am not disputing the teacher has a better articulation, but there is no way to determine which one is projecting more to an audience in front of the players from that video. When you put a microphone right up where someone is playing versus to the side and across the room, that is the biggest factor in how loud it sounds. He is clearly wearing a mic and the students are not. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing magic going on - yes he's a better player but the difference in presence you're hearing is because he's mic'd differently than they are. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2331 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Nothing magic going on - yes he's a better player but the difference in presence you're hearing is because he's mic'd differently than they are. |
I'll disagree, again. His personal mic is not picking up that much, not very hot, (it's not picking up his comments all that much and the students voices are as present), and it's not at the bell end of the trumpet.
I'd say that his sound and technique IS that much better. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 5:20 am Post subject: |
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Tom Rolfs was a student of Vincent Cichowicz (among others).
The pop you hear comes from the theory of 10% consonant 90% vowel release with a smooth air flow.
This comes down from Arnold Jacobs and is the reason many great players who understand and have learned these teachings have this clear articulation.
Those of us who were trained in Chicago have this manner of attack in our playing.
My late college teacher was one of Cichowicz's first group of students. He had a gorgeous sound and exactly this kind of clean articulation.
A close friend and mentor was also in that group and even at 84 still has that "pop" and pure sound.
R. Tomasek |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3307 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 6:37 am Post subject: |
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Have the INTENT of doing a clean & crisp articulation, and the CONFIDENCE to do it with full immediate commitment.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 1:27 am Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | Robert P wrote: | Nothing magic going on - yes he's a better player but the difference in presence you're hearing is because he's mic'd differently than they are. |
I'll disagree, again. |
To make sure we're talking about the same thing - I'm comparing for example the sound of the Tchaikovsky excerpt - first played by the students at 8:18 and when Tom Rolfs takes the first part at 12:10. As someone who does audio stuff, the difference in presence due to mic proximity is glaringly obvious.
As a further demonstration of the difference in how they're mic'd listen to about 12:23 and 12:44 where Tom is speaking then about 13:21 where the student is talking. Do you hear the difference in presence when Tom is speaking? You don't hear the ambient echo you hear when the student is talking - one of the principles of recording is how much "room" can be heard in a recording. You can also hear a breath plosive at 12:49 when Tom chuckles - that only happens when you're right on top of a mic. When recording a vocalist you use a pop filter to eliminate those kinds of sounds. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:33 am Post subject: |
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Definitely a different microphone placement for the 2 cases. To make a valid comparison would require the SAME setup. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | The pop you hear comes from the theory of 10% consonant 90% vowel release with a smooth air flow. |
The "vowel" is of little consequence. The "abruptness" of the consonant PLUS a high functioning embouchure are the important factors.
It is the ABRUPT air pressure change in the cup that gives the result. The "pop" that you hear is the pressure impulse, and the frequencies are a mix of both low and high and all in between which transmit through the instrument and are not reflected back into the standing wave.
The same transient phenomenon occurs in other instruments such as percussive or stringed instruments.
The air flow "smoothness" is concern AFTER the initial attack IF one wishes to hold a steady loudness. But it is in fact the ABRUPT change in air pressure which gives the impulse that one hears as a "pop". |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for bringing the mic to my attention, but I am more interested in the articulation quality. The Cichowicz vowel thing is very interesting---I'll be sure to experiment with that.
By the way, anyone have the Cichowicz CD with Rolfs playing? Is there a recording on YouTube? |
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