mouthpiece recommendations needed...

[khedger]

Hi all,

I've been playing a bach 3c or equivalent mouthpiece for decades. However, recently I've been playing a Conn 80a cornet and I'm having a bunch of trouble with it. High register (above a top line F) is VERY cumbersome to play, very difficult to play accurately, and exhausting.
I've heard people who play this horn comment that they need to be played with their original mouthpieces. I'm not interested in trying to find and play an original mouthpiece for this thing, but I AM willing to consider trying a different mouthpiece if it makes sense.
So, to that end, anybody have any suggestions for what a good mouthpiece might be for this horn?

thanks,

keith

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

Hi Keith, do you know the vintage? It sounds from other posts like some need a mouthpiece with an older sized shank, in which case you'd want to try Curry's vintage line. How is intonation below the staff? If that's a problem you probably really need an entirely different type of mouthpiece. What other mouthpieces can you try? On my ambassador cornet I ended up going with a Bach 5b, which fit the shenk, but I have a King that would take the yamaha deep mouthpieces and really sounds nice. Good luck!

[giakara]

I have the same horn and I use vintage Purviance 5☆3 , this piece 17.00mm diameter with deep C cup and #27 bore , it works great in this cornet becose has a tighter bbore in comparison with other mouthpieces and helps me manage and balance the huge bore of the horn.
This pieces are extremely rare but you can order one from Reeves shop.

Regards
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Getzen eterna 910 C
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Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
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Reeves/Purviance mpcs

[zaferis]

It's tough to say that the issue you're experiencing is that of the mouthpiece, the instrument, or your approach to playing cornet.
I'll suggest you go with something deeper (traditional cornet-like) and spend some time working at adjusting your approach to cornet - basically "back off" - "ease up".. do a lot of flexibilty exercises at a soft dynamic.

For specific mouthpieces to try, I'll suggest Curry's line-up of cornet pieces. 3DC is a great place to start.

Your bio line says you're in Cambridge.. find you way over to Osmun Music and demo some pieces, and while you're there, have them check out the horn.
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[JeffM729]

The earlier 80A cornets, pre 1957, were issued with the Precision line of mouthpieces which had a different taper and a shorter shank. Mark Curry can make one to fit your cornet.

The 80A Victor had the large 2 1/2 bore which was .484. That might be affecting your issues above the staff assuming the instrument is in proper working order.

[nltrumpet]

I've recently come into possession (permanent loan) of an 1954 80A Cornet. I echo what these other posters have said about the short shank. I use the Precision 4 that came with it, but I've ordered a 3TC with a Conn shank from Mark Curry, but still have a couple of weeks before that comes in.

[lipshurt]

The 80a does not need a different taper or different shank.
You can use the short which is 2.5 inches or the long which is 2.75 inches.
It depends on the cup depth. A 3c will work pretty good if it’s the standard long 2.75 Bach length. If the upper B is sharp, then a little big longer might help.

If you upper register is flag with the 3c cup and 2.75 length then something is wrong. Most likely a distorted bend in the main slide, too much pull of the opera glass slide, a leaky 1st valve, or red rot in the leadpipe. Other things can go wrong too of course, like a water key that almost seals perfectly.

It’s not hard to get a mouthpiece that works on the 80a. If you are using anything deeper than a 3c then use the short shank. Like a conn shortshank. Yamaha, wick, etc.

I did some more detailed posts regarding this in the past here on TH
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[cheiden]

My earlier 80a sounds noticeably better with the stock mouthpiece. It loses a lot of it's character when I use any modern mouthpiece. Unfortunately the rim disagrees with me. From what I've read Curry is the say to go but his 3(.) rim feels too big for me.
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Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[JeffM729]

[khedger]

[giakara]

[Dale Proctor]

In my experience, Ive not found that any of the Conn .484” bore cornets have a difficult upper register. In fact I think they have an easier upper register than many other cornets I’ve owned/played. As for shank size, the older ones (from about 1959 and earlier) do use a slightly different taper, and seem to play better with the original mouthpiece, if you can get along ok with a Conn 4. Modern short shank cornet mouthpieces seem to fit and work ok, possibly because of the shorter engagement area. Modern long shank mouthpieces tend to not seat correctly and wobble a little. The post-1959 ones use standard shank mouthpieces so most any modern cornet mouthpiece fits fine.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[lipshurt]

the conn short shank mouthpiece uses a .050 per inch rate of taper. same as a trumpet mouthpiece, and same as "modern" cornet mouthpieces like bach and all other common ones. The cornets that came with short mouthpieces do not have a different taper.

you can find examples of mouthpieces with slightly incorrect dimensions, and you can easily find receivers with slighly incorrect dimensions.

The olds company did have a totally different shank size, and they switched to "modern" (which is actually not very modern) in the 50's. for those instruments it's best to replace the receivers, so any common .050 per inch mouthpiece can be used. But that is olds, not conn
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[cheiden]

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle34.html
A couple of useful quotes:
"In the spring of 2007 I had Kanstul make me a shank that was a copy of a Conn 4 short shank cornet. Kanstul's Jim New said this about it: "The taper is in fact different, we measure 0.06" per inch where a standard taper is 0.05" per inch." In other words, Conn short shank cornet mouthpieces are indeed more tapered than long shank cornet mouthpieces.

Beware that while modern short shank mouthpieces might be the right length (2½"), they might not be the right taper. I have not had the chance to measure one, but a modern short shank cornet mouthpiece, while better than a long shank cornet mouthpiece, might still not properly fit a pre-1958 Conn"

"From this we can reach a few tentative conclusions:
1. If your long shank cornet mouthpiece fits perfectly in your short shank cornet, it has probably been reamed out.
2. Do try a short shank mouthpiece on your pre-1958 Conn cornet; chances are good it will play better.corner."
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[JeffM729]

According to Mark Curry the taper is .006.

Special Cornet Shanks

"C" Conn short cornet blank now available! Pre-1958 (serial numbers less than 700,00) Conn cornet afficianados can now order their favorite Curry cornet cup in the correct size for these popular cornets. At 2.5" long with the correct 60 thousandths/inch taper (and correct shank diameter) these vintage cornets speak easier with better intonation! Thanks to Rick Henrickson of NYC and Alan Hancock (UK) for their insightful help and research. For more, check out this informative link http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/ConnArticle34.html.

[lipshurt]

Easy enough to measure. I have seen .050 and .045, but not .060. I’ve had 8 old conn cornets that I played extensively and they all took .050.

The one in my hand is .050.
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[delano]

[lipshurt]

some people believe what they read, others believe what they have heard, other people believe what they measure.

Im not saying there are no conn short shank pieces with .060 per inch taper.
I'm simply saying that the ones I've measured have been .050 per inch. That is 8 out of 8 short shank pieces being .050.

I have also measured two long shank conn 4 and those were both. .045 per inch, and they both worked ok and would seat in the receivers of all the cornets and receiver parts i tried them in.

all of those short shank conns were from about 1938. For a while i was on a mission to get conns. 8a slender, (two of them) 36a concert grand (two of them) 80a (three of them) and something else...maybe a director, and those all came with conn 4 shorts. I had a couple directors that also came with conn 4 long shanks.

I've also worked on other peoples conn's and made shanks for various instrument, dozens and dozens, and .050 fits in everything except the early OLDS.

Just because the taper fits, does not mean its going to work well of course.
The shank end diameter is important. COrnet pieces can be .338 on the small side, to .345 on the big side. That is a lot of variation. I make cornet shanks .342 and that seems to be a good working insertion depth solution.

As for the idea that there are receivers out there that have been "reamed" into not wobbling with a .050 shank...thats bogus. Those conn receivers are made of tubing, not machined from stock. That means they are work hardened, and springy, and they are wrapped by another piece of tubing. Have you ever tried to get one that is slightly oval shaped to be round again? really hard to do because it springs back. even if you ream it with a tapered reamer it springs back and it's really hard to get right. By the way, it happens a LOT that the receiver gets out of round, and every example of wobble ive seen, which isn't many was due to an out-of-round receiver.

i just bought a couple more on ebay to measure. will update when they come in
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vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
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[Dale Proctor]

I used to own a ‘54 Conn 80A. It came with the original Conn 4 short shank mouthpiece, which fit just as a mouthpiece should. Because I don’t like Conn 4 mouthpieces, I tried numerous standard length modern cornet mouthpieces in it, including Bach, Schilke, Curry, and Conn, including a Connstellation. They all had a slight wobble when seated. I also tried a few modern short shank pieces, including Conn, Wick, and Stork. They all seemed to seat ok, which I attributed to the shorter engagement area.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[Andy Cooper]

I had good luck with "m" style cups and Warburton #4 to #5 backbores. This was with an 80 that had the leadpipe ledge mushed down so that it was effectively a "no gap" situation. That combination also worked for late 40's and early 50's 80's with a "gap". I don't remember needing to modify the backbores.

This combination blended pretty well with trumpets.

If the horn has a good valve alignment, it should have a very good high register when played with "trumpet" style mouthpieces.

I preferred using the Vic as an extremely large bore trumpet rather than as a cornet.