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Andiroo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 711
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Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: How much air is supposed to travel through the trumpet? |
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I was practicing my spit-buzz. Anyway one way or another i was spit-buzzing into a glass almost full of water. I had a strong loud buzz and the water hardly moved. Now i'm not one for being a fool, so i didn't attempt to lip buzz into the glass of water, is it would have gone all over my face.
This left me wondering, about how much air should be traveling through the trumpet when playing the TCE way? _________________ Dizzy kicks brass!
Talent isn't natural, its hard work... |
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lubonv Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 787 Location: Paris - France
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Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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TCE gave me the full understanding that the idea of pushing air through the instrument is only an imagery that helps to create pressure in order to create the necessary vibration at the level of the embouchure: if the embouchure becomes perfectly efficient (sealed ) all the air pressure becomes vibration (and it doesn't need much air) at the level were the forward tongue is against both inner lips. Of couse there is a residual air coming out of the vibrating zone: in fact it should just be quiet 'warm' air escaping, enough to warm up the brass and create water condensation.
Best regards,
Lb _________________ "For if the trumpet has an uncertain sound who will prepare himself for the battle?" Paul, Ch.
Custom Made Slide Trumpet & Slide Flugelhorn
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I think Lubonv is in agreement with me: (although I'm not sure)
you want the absolute minimum amount of air entering the horn as possible.
My second goal of the day is to have the tongue resisting the airstream as much as possible.
Of course both those goals are defined by sound, and this is where quiet playing could do you in. You still want clear, brilliant projecting sound, and popping attacks like a snare drum.
Ray _________________ "And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details |
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Andiroo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 711
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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What lubonv said seems to make a lot of sense.
Quote: | Of course both those goals are defined by sound, and this is where quiet playing could do you in. You still want clear, brilliant projecting sound, and popping attacks like a snare drum. |
Are you saying playing quietly is detrimental to learning the TCE method? Also so far my tone is somewhat to be desired, and my articulation is slow and clumsy. I feel as though i am making progress though. I'm only a few days back into it. _________________ Dizzy kicks brass!
Talent isn't natural, its hard work... |
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goldenhornplayer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 1123 Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:48 am Post subject: Re: How much air is supposed to travel through the trumpet? |
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Andiroo wrote: | I was practicing my spit-buzz. Anyway one way or another i was spit-buzzing into a glass almost full of water. I had a strong loud buzz and the water hardly moved. Now i'm not one for being a fool, so i didn't attempt to lip buzz into the glass of water, is it would have gone all over my face. This left me wondering, about how much air should be traveling through the trumpet when playing the TCE way? |
Jerome showed me a study done on the air required to play a trombone. In this test, a diaphram was installed inside the mouthpiece to prevent any air at all from entering the instrument. A port was drilled into the side of the mouthpiece to allow the air being blown to escape. According to this study, the trombone sound was normal, even though no air was going through the instrument. This test demonstrates that the purpose of blowing air is only to create a vibration and it is the vibration alone that creates the sound. Now, doesn't it stand to reason that if we could play with a technique that creates this vibration with the least amount of blown air, we would be way ahead of the game. Well, surprise, surprise, this is exactly what Jerome has been after with his tongue-controlled embouchure approach. In fact, his approach is so effective, you will find a new ease of playing that results is unparalled power and sound. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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While air flow THROUGH the instrument is not required. "Pulsed" Air flow into the mouthpiece IS required. And this flow is defined in a major way by the acoustical properties of the instrument.
It is fallacy to believe that you can play with zero air flow or anything approaching that.
There is a minumum air pressure and minimum flow required for each note and dynamic on the horn. The BEST a player can do is to approach that minimum through practice and aquired habits and skill.
Regardles of the embouchure "method" they use. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Jerome showed me a study done on the air required to play a trombone. In this test, a diaphram was installed inside the mouthpiece to prevent any air at all from entering the instrument. A port was drilled into the side of the mouthpiece to allow the air being blown to escape. According to this study, the trombone sound was normal, even though no air was going through the instrument. |
Yes but the "air required" was going into the mouthpiece. You can not draw the conclusion that there was no air "required" simply because the flow was diverted out of the mouthpiece.
The experiment allows the impedance and resonance of the instrument to exist. ANd flow IS required for a tone. |
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Andiroo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 711
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Ohh... i hope i haven't opened a can of worms.
Anyway i'm a few days back into trying TCE. I am noticing improvements. The Tone is better than it was the last time i tried it(thats not to say that it's good, it still sound pretty horrid). It seems to improve every time i pick the horn up. I was able to produce a loud sound from very little air so i think things are shifting into the right direction.
What prompted the improvement was playing mid G. I was triple tonguing triplets at a slow speed, my tongue can't tongue in this position very fast yet, so i am to develop multiple tonguing as soon as possible to compensate for a slow single tongue/spit-buzz. I think it was the Gah syllable that shifted my tongue into a better forwards position. _________________ Dizzy kicks brass!
Talent isn't natural, its hard work... |
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goldenhornplayer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 1123 Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Quote: | Jerome showed me a study done on the air required to play a trombone. In this test, a diaphram was installed inside the mouthpiece to prevent any air at all from entering the instrument. A port was drilled into the side of the mouthpiece to allow the air being blown to escape. According to this study, the trombone sound was normal, even though no air was going through the instrument. |
Yes but the "air required" was going into the mouthpiece. You can not draw the conclusion that there was no air "required" simply because the flow was diverted out of the mouthpiece.
The experiment allows the impedance and resonance of the instrument to exist. ANd flow IS required for a tone. |
Where did you think I drew the conclusion that no air was required? Obviously, air is required to generate the vibration. I was simply reporting on a test showing that the instrument sounded normal even though no air was going through it. Air was entering the mouthpiece however which is why a port was drilled to allow a path for that air to escape. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Andiroo, you just opened another can of worms with triple tonguing! You don't want to use a conventional ga or ka stroke. All strokes should be in front of the teeth! The TCE "ka" is farther forward than your normal articulation. I'd suggest maybe getting more established before moving on to multiple tonguing with TCE.
Best, Ray _________________ "And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details |
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Andiroo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 711
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm razeontherock have you seen the TCE Manual. Right from the start there are 5 articulations you are supposed to practice.
slur
spit-buzz
breath attacks
spitbuzz with gah
gah all on it's own
I haven't really been practicing out of the book, i just try to play some tunes with very little range, and vary my articulation. I want the DVD asap, i hope it isn't too expensive when it comes out. _________________ Dizzy kicks brass!
Talent isn't natural, its hard work... |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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goldenhornplayer wrote:
Quote: | This test demonstrates that the purpose of blowing air is only to create a vibration and it is the vibration alone that creates the sound.
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The pulsing air is not to create a vibration, it IS the vibration.
The misconception among almost all trumpet players is that the air movement causes the lips to vibrate and the sound is a result of the vibrating lips. This is really not an accurate understanding. These pulses of air which are regulated by the aperture are THE source of sound. Not the "flapping" lips.
The sound requires an application of power from the air. Now "power" is not the same as air "pressure". For there to be power to the sound there must be pulses of air that have pressure AND flow.
The lowest flow required would occur if the player was playing at 100 percent efficiency, that is, all of the power would become sound. But even at 100 percent efficiency there would still be flow, and significant air-flow at that.
It would be inaccurate to suggest that pressure can replace flow or vice versa.
Quote: | Now, doesn't it stand to reason that if we could play with a technique that creates this vibration with the least amount of blown air, we would be way ahead of the game. |
Yes. But , again, the "least amount" is still significant, even with good efficiency. The accoustics of the horn requires it.
Quote: | Well, surprise, surprise, this is exactly what Jerome has been after with his tongue-controlled embouchure approach. In fact, his approach is so effective, you will find a new ease of playing that results is unparalled power and sound. |
I fail to see the connection between the "experiment" and your claims of TCE.
And TCE will not override the accoustic requrements of the horn. I find it interesting also that TCE proponents push "free-blowing" horns. Those which, acoustically, require more air flow, not less.
Efficiency and great power and sound can certainly be developed without TCE. Especially since about 100 percent of the powerful players that I come in contact with do not use TCE. |
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Winghorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2167 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Spitbuzz with gah? Sounds like a Klingon delicacy. |
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digs Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 498 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure what this apparent arguing is about. I don't think it has been stated anywhere that playing the TCE method requires zero airflow through the horn. But speaking conceptually, you will get better TCE development and results by working toward not blowing lots of air through the horn.
Some players use free blowing horns I guess. And some don't. I believe Jerry uses a 22B, as do others. |
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goldenhornplayer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 1123 Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | goldenhornplayer wrote:
Quote: | This test demonstrates that the purpose of blowing air is only to create a vibration and it is the vibration alone that creates the sound.
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The pulsing air is not to create a vibration, it IS the vibration.
The misconception among almost all trumpet players is that the air movement causes the lips to vibrate and the sound is a result of the vibrating lips. This is really not an accurate understanding. These pulses of air which are regulated by the aperture are THE source of sound. Not the "flapping" lips.
The sound requires an application of power from the air. Now "power" is not the same as air "pressure". For there to be power to the sound there must be pulses of air that have pressure AND flow.
The lowest flow required would occur if the player was playing at 100 percent efficiency, that is, all of the power would become sound. But even at 100 percent efficiency there would still be flow, and significant air-flow at that.
It would be inaccurate to suggest that pressure can replace flow or vice versa.
Quote: | Now, doesn't it stand to reason that if we could play with a technique that creates this vibration with the least amount of blown air, we would be way ahead of the game. |
Yes. But , again, the "least amount" is still significant, even with good efficiency. The accoustics of the horn requires it.
Quote: | Well, surprise, surprise, this is exactly what Jerome has been after with his tongue-controlled embouchure approach. In fact, his approach is so effective, you will find a new ease of playing that results is unparalled power and sound. |
I fail to see the connection between the "experiment" and your claims of TCE.
And TCE will not override the accoustic requrements of the horn. I find it interesting also that TCE proponents push "free-blowing" horns. Those which, acoustically, require more air flow, not less.
Efficiency and great power and sound can certainly be developed without TCE. Especially since about 100 percent of the powerful players that I come in contact with do not use TCE. |
Kalijah--You make some good points to be sure and I certainly agree with you that many players develop great power and sound without TCE, or at least TCE in it's purest form. On the other hand, I also believe it is an increased degree of air compression that creates great power and sound so it's becomes more an argument of how a great player compresses air. In TCE, the tongue is the main focus of how this is done. Personally, I think most of us would be greatly surprised to find out how much the great players used their tongues for this purpose. I'd probably have a hard time proving that but it's what makes sense to me. Also, I would add a personal note that I definitely use less air volume with TCE than I did previously and have a far more powerful and focused tone. |
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Forte Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2002 Posts: 269 Location: please use e-mail below
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | While air flow THROUGH the instrument is not required. "Pulsed" Air flow into the mouthpiece IS required. And this flow is defined in a major way by the acoustical properties of the instrument.
It is fallacy to believe that you can play with zero air flow or anything approaching that.
There is a minumum air pressure and minimum flow required for each note and dynamic on the horn. The BEST a player can do is to approach that minimum through practice and aquired habits and skill.
Regardles of the embouchure "method" they use. |
Hi,
I agree with everything Kalijah has posted so far. Again, I think semantics have the ability to impede this discussion. So, I will try and elucidate Mr. Callet's argument.
Jerome uses the aforementioned ITG study to debase the phrase "fill the horn up with air". This is a common teaching technique, which was taught to me, where the student is told to blow air from the lungs, through the throat of the mouthpiece, and out the bell of the trumpet towards the audience, a piece of paper, a distant wall etc. Jerome thinks this teaching is incorrect and uses this study to show that air from the body does not need to travel through the trumpet, thus air displacement is not necessary for the trumpet to work.
In the ITG study, no air was passing through the trombone- but air was moving inside the trombone. For example, consider floating in the ocean near the beach. When a wave approaches and reaches you, you will move up and slightly forward, when the wave passes, you move back to where you were before. Hence, total distance traveled is zero, but there was movement! What occurred inside the tubing of the said trombone is related, except the movement of air would have only been side to side (nodes and anti-nodes), not a combination of vertical and horizontal movement in the water wave analogy.
I hope this clears up of some the controversy. But, I have only had a couple of college level physics courses, but I think I got it right so far. Feel free to visit this wonderful website for more information
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html Choose “Sound and Hearing”, then “Standing Waves” or “Air Columns”.
Thanks,
Robert _________________ If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly. |
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lubonv Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 787 Location: Paris - France
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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goldenhornplayer wrote: | Personally, I think most of us would be greatly surprised to find out how much the great players used their tongues for this purpose. I'd probably have a hard time proving that but it's what makes sense to me. |
Yes, 100% with this!!! It's all about the tongue!! Thanks Jerome for finding that out and try to spread it among players!
Lb _________________ "For if the trumpet has an uncertain sound who will prepare himself for the battle?" Paul, Ch.
Custom Made Slide Trumpet & Slide Flugelhorn
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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+1, LB (or two ... how many do I get?) _________________ "And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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goldenhornplayer wrote:
Quote: | On the other hand, I also believe it is an increased degree of air compression that creates great power and sound so it's becomes more an argument of how a great player compresses air. |
The lungs compress the air, using the muscles in the abdominal region there is no air pressure (you say "compression") that is greater than this anywhere in the system. Especially after a restriction such as what TCE offers.
Quote: | In TCE, the tongue is the main focus of how this is done. Personally, I think most of us would be greatly surprised to find out how much the great players used their tongues for this purpose. |
I think most would be surprised how most great players keep their toungues out of the way not adding additional resistance. Which is completely unnecessary.
Quote: | I'd probably have a hard time proving that but it's what makes sense to me.
Also, I would add a personal note that I definitely use less air volume with TCE than I did previously and have a far more powerful and focused tone |
You probably use less air volume for the amount of pressure you are using, compared to the conventional way.
But this does not mean you are using less air neccessarily, you are probably just using more air pressure and the flow is about what it should be. (Or rather, what it MUST be).
Now if you have acheived some degree of efficiency and you are more effectively exploiting the resonance inside the horn you may indeed be using less air.
However since most TCEers speak of increased resistance at the tongue tip, it is most likely that you are having to increase the lung pressure to make up for the loss of pressure thru this added resistance.
You believe that the resistive obstruction, which requires more lung pressure, is applied to the sound. But in fact the increased pressure never reaches the mouthpiece cup.
Last edited by kalijah on Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Robert wrote:
Quote: | Jerome uses the aforementioned ITG study to debase the phrase "fill the horn up with air". This is a common teaching technique, which was taught to me, where the student is told to blow air from the lungs, through the throat of the mouthpiece, and out the bell of the trumpet towards the audience, a piece of paper, a distant wall etc. |
I too am annoyed by the "fill-up the horn" advice. Air for air's sake does not guarantee a good sound, nor is it the best approach to teaching. IMO
Quote: | Jerome thinks this teaching is incorrect and uses this study to show that air from the body does not need to travel through the trumpet, thus air displacement is not necessary for the trumpet to work. |
But that is an incorrect assumption! In fact, air displacement, that is, net flow, IS required. Not INSIDE the horn so much. But INTO the horn through the pulsing aperture, from inside the air pressure source. Namely, the body, and specifically, the oral space.
Quote: | In the ITG study, no air was passing through the trombone- but air was moving inside the trombone. |
Passing through the the horn , no. Passing into the moutpiece through the aperture, YES, most definitely.
(You failed to mention that there was a membrane installed that would allow the standing wave to pass but block the net flow into the horn itself, which was diverted out through a hole in the side of the mouthpice. If the hole was blocked, the sound stopped. Because no power could be applied to the sound if there was no net flow.)
(Edit: actually, goldenhorn mentioned the membrane and air diversion earlier.)
Quote: | For example, consider floating in the ocean near the beach. |
Well not the same as trumpet playing, so not a real good example.
But go ahead:
Quote: | When a wave approaches and reaches you, you will move up and slightly forward, when the wave passes, you move back to where you were before. Hence, total distance traveled is zero, but there was movement! |
Yes movement, but no work was done. That is, no power was applied.
A better example would be a resorvoir of water with a exit gate that opens and closes. (Much like an embouchure) The gate opens into lower level pond with a resonant wave standing. Now if the far end of the pond were closed the gate could open and close in cycles in sequence with the reflected wave returning at the same peak level as the wave. (Comperable to pressure) So as the gate opened the open gate would "see" the same level and no water would flow.
However if the far end of the pond is open and allows some of the wave energy to propogate out of the resonant pool into an ambient body of water (much like the trumpet bell operates), then the returning wave back to the gate will have less energy, that is, pressure than it had before.
SO at the gate, in order to sustain a constant resonance in the pool, water would have to flow out of the gate and into the pool to give energy to each wave and restore it to the desired level.
Even if you diverted the NET flow out of the resonant pool. The flow or "pulse" at each opening is requred to sutain the resonance in the pool.
Another way to look at it would be from a "power" approach. The sound out of the trumpet IS power. Simply applying alternating pressure does not necessarily mean power is delivered to the sound the horn is making.
As a matter of fact pressure applied with zero flow would mean zero power , and, believe it or not, zero sound.
So the power applied to your playing is the mathematical product of pressure and flow.
That is
pressure x flow = power
as i stated earlier the pressure peak inside the horn is directly related to the sound volume, the flow is defined by the horn's acoustic properties. namely how much of the standing wave exits the bell, is absorbed by the horn , etc..
It is these acoustic properties of reflectivity or "transmission" that make some horns appear "free blowing" compared to those which are more "resistive". It is the requred flow for a given pressure intensity of the wave resonating in the horn.
And there is no playing "method" out there, TCE or otherwise. That can "alter" the accoustics in the horn or its flow requirements.
And please don't try to argue the point of "resistance" by the tongue replacing or augmenting the "resistance" of the horn. The horns "resistance" is not simple resistance to flow, it is a complex "impedance", these are not interchangeable.
Quote: | I hope this clears up of some the controversy. But, I have only had a couple of college level physics courses, but I think I got it right so far. Feel free to visit this wonderful website for more information |
You need to re-think your physics a bit. Hope you will be open minded to let me show you where you are not quite "right so far" but you are getting close.
Quote: | http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html Choose “Sound and Hearing”, then “Standing Waves” or “Air Columns”. |
I love the Hyperphysics site. It can also readily be used to show that a restriction in the air flow causes a dramatic pressure loss, not an increase.
Darryl Jones
www.horndogsband.com |
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