If you had 8 hours a day to practice....

the chief · Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2003 12:06 pm Post subject:

..., how long do you think it would take to be as good as somebody like Arturo, or Wynton?

Chaser · Veteran Member Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 441

It isn't sheer practice. At that level, you have to have alot of natural talent.

MrOlds · Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:17 pm Post subject:

Interesting question. But I think there's more to it than mere time on the horn.

In the case of the leading trumpet artists there is a huge amount of musical talent that must be considered in addition to talent for playing the trumpet. They play the way they do in part because they have so much to say musically that it has driven them to master the instrument to the level it needed to be in order to get all that stuff out into the air. I don't think that average players would ever get to Wynton's level (or Arturo or Maurice, or .....) because they don't have the same amount of music that they absolutely have to communicate to the world. So mere mortals like me could practice all day for decades and probably not play as profoundly as them.

Back to the how-much-practice-would-it-take question, I've seen interviews with Wynton where he says that the difference between someone like him and mere mortals like me is that he accomplishes much more per minute of practice than the rest of us. I don't know how long it took Wynton to become Wynton, but he was pretty phenominal by age 18. Lets say it took him 10 years to reach some significant level. If I assume that he can accomplish 5x more per minute of practice than I can and it took him 10 years, then it would take me a lifetime...

Guess I better get back to practicing.

Louis

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

If you tried to practice 8 hours a day, you will be really stiff, and sound tired all the time.

Practice "smart" not long - 3 hours (2 90min sessions) is all you need - tops!!!!!!

romey

Bootleg · Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:29 pm Post subject:

well, remember how Arturos sed that he played until lips literally bled? I believe that shows how much hard work and dedication it took for these people to achieve their level of playing, especially since his teacher initially told him he had absolutely no talent at all.

As for Wynton, although I doubt he practiced 8 hours a day, I am fairly sure that he put in more tha 3 hours a day. So basically, he practice 5-6 hours "smartly" which would take the average joe upwards of 10 hours a day if we assume that he progresses 2x as fast due to his talent. Even at 10 hours a day, if we practice 3 hours, that will be nearly 3X as long, and if it took him 10 years, it would take us 30.

But then again, you have to take a look at how much one can progress in that 3 hour time period, because some can beneift from playing more and building muscles in that mannar, while others perhaps can get more outta 3 hours in 2 days than one can in a 6 hour session.

So i guess it will vary among people, but definately, it will be nearly impossible to achieve that level if anybody practiced 8 hours a day unless u had the talent to begin with, or else we'd see plenty of players coming outta nowhere.

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

It also depends how much you are performing, and what kind of playing you're doing as well. There is no magic formula. I wouldn't play until you bleed though - that is just stupid. Use your head, so you don't abuse your chops.

romey

WaxHaX0rS · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jul 2003 Posts: 524

So you're saying I can play like arturo if I embed razor blades into my mouthpiece!?!?

musiclifeline · Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:35 pm Post subject:

I wanna take a stab at this too.

To develop their TECHNIQUE... I'd say if you practiced 8 hours a day in an intelligent way with lots of rest (some people actually do this, you know) you could achieve that technique in 8 to 10 years.

To develop their EXPERIENCE or MUSICALITY or MATURITY (well... not sure if maturity applies to Arturo, as I think he still plays like an 18-year-old who's fascinated by his own technique)... you're looking at about 1,346 years, give or take a couple hundred. There's no substitute for being surrounded by music (Wynton from New Orleans and Arturo from Cuba) and top-level musicians. Even 23 hours a day of practicing won't give you those kinds of benefits.

(Wow... I think there's a crack at Arturo buried somewhere in there. Did I really say that out loud? Sorry, no internal monologue tonight.)

[ This Message was edited by: musiclifeline on 2003-12-27 23:36 ]

trumpetmike · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:36 am Post subject:

8 hours each day - luxury!

What would I do with 8 hours possible practice time? Well, I would be a lot poorer for starters!!

Whether I would actually use all 8 of these hours for trumpet (and cornet and flugel) playing is doubtful. I would probably spend a good 4 or 5 practising, but not in one solid lump. The chances are high that I would break it up with other stuff, listening, arranging, composing all that sort of stuff.

The reasons I would do that muc playing is not to try and get as good as Arturo or Wynton - I'm realistic about my playing. I would want to be the best I can be. If I ended up as a player of that calibre I would be very surprised, but if I ended up a better player, that would be what I was after.

When I left university I was happily doing 4 or 5 hours every day of sensible practising. There would always be a long notes set, flexibility studies, technical exercises, orchestral repertoire and solo repertoire. I did notice an improvement in my playing and, especially, in my stamina. Due to working, this is now a duration that is beyond my capability, but (when given the chance) I enjoy playing for extended periods of time. If I do so for a few days in a row I can feel my chops become more secure and my playing does get better. My students always know when I have had a few days when I could play - not because I necessarily sound better, but I am more forthcoming in my playing and demonstrating. Not to mention the fact that I am usually as lot happier if I have been able to do some playing just for me!

robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

I think that the fact players like Arturo or Wynton cite lots and lots of practice in their youth as a key factor in their success speaks more to the absolute dedication and love of music they found within themselves at that stage in their lives than to a method of learning how to play.

When they speak of playing that much, I don't think they're necessarily saying "Practice that much, and you'll be as good as me" but rather that you need to be obsessed with playing music at some point in your life if you want to do anything notable.

Some might disagree with me on that point, but I'll stand by it. At some point, music has to consume you. Hopefully it always will! When it does, though, you don't think about how much you're playing (too much? not enough?) and you just do what you set out to do.

Above all, in this discussion, we should remember that innovative musicians of all stripes don't seperate "technique" in their minds from "playing" in general. 2 hours, 8 hours, whatever. Just give whatever you're playing your TOTAL focus for as long as you're doing it.

[ This Message was edited by: robert_white on 2003-12-28 22:38 ]

roynj · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065

8 is not enough... to quote (sort of) the old TV show.

As good as Arturo or Wynton? Well, that might take something more than simply lots of practice. If I knew what that something was, I would be selling it. he he

Annie · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:44 pm Post subject:

I have a Q on the subject...doesn't a musical family background REALLY help? In fact, don't most great musicians come from a large background of music? Especially those that were around excellent bands as young children...heard music/someone singing before born('tis possible)...I don't know much about the guys backgrounds - but I'm sure there is some sort of family musical influence, heck, I'm probably wrong.
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~Annie

*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.*

etownfwd · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:49 pm Post subject:

It has been my experience that children who are exposed to ALL types of music, regardless of musical genetic predisposition, do relatively well in musical areas. I had a teacher who has perfect pitch. His son, his daughter, and he were all observed by some medical institution to study whether Perfect pitch was learned or whether it was genetic. The results were that neither child has perfect pitch, however each has excellent RELATIVE pitch. The bottom line, you can't be "born into the family business". Everyone has to work for what they get.
-efwd

the chief · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:04 pm Post subject:

If it takes more then lots of sensible practice to be as good as Wynton or Arturo, then what else does it take?

pjtpt · Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 6:31 am Post subject:

I'm amazed about a comment Wynton made about practicing when he was younger--he never missed a day of practice for seven years. That kind of dedication (love of playing) is part of what it takes (I asssume). I have a hard time "stringing together" a week let alone a month or 7 years!

Ruechel · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:42 am Post subject:

chief-

as some mentioned previously, it takes the gift of talent. some poeple are blessed with a better set of tools mentally/physically. otherwise, we would have 100's of charlie parkers, coltranes, gillespies, clifford browns, etc. running around.

BTW, i don't think that Wynton is a genius at all. i think he is a virtuoso player and i think you could get there if you had the discipline to practice and the insight as to what to practice EVERY DAY. the rest is personality and connections...

EBjazz · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 7:41 am Post subject:

OK. I never missed a day of practice for ten years. I practice every day, although I did take 10 years off from practice.
So now we're at the 21st year and I'm practicing again.
The only real "music" I practice is Improvising. I am working the Biscth book. I enjoy that book. The etudes are jovial, although with no key.

Eb
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Jon Arnold · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2026

EB Jazz,

Cool picture. As far as practicing goes. I think the key is knowing what to practice and having a solid plan for success, both on the short term and long term. In my high school and college days I definitely had a well rounded approach to practicing, but now with a job, wife, kids, etc. When I practice I spend what time I have on things I want to play, mainly improvising. But the thing is I can do a lot more now because of the things I practiced in my high school and mainly college days. I also think it is important to be playing with a performing group. That is definite motivation for a player. I went my first year of teaching 7 years ago. I didn't play with a group at all and my horn was neglected. I played with a brass band for a year and for the past 5 years I have been playing at a contemporary gospel church. I play 4 services a week and it has been great for me. I transcribe horn parts and improvise. My ear is sharper than ever. I would like to increase my range and endurance, but who wouldn't.

riffdawg2000 · Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:57 am Post subject:

I personally believe it is a lot of practice ... but there is also a lot of 'natural', gut ability.
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Joel Thomas

AverageJoe · Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:01 am Post subject:

Yes, it takes natural ability and talent, but that is only a foundation to build upon. It takes long, hard, smart, efficient practice to develop those gifts.

At the risk of sounding absurd, I'll contrast myself with Chris Martin of the Atlanta Symphony, who is firmly established as one of the young rising stars in the trumpet world. Chris' work ethic growing up is exactly why he is where he is and I am where I am...Anybody who had contact with him as a serious student in high school or at Eastman will attest to the dedication and remarkable discipline he has. Now, I do not mean to imply that I am as naturally gifted as Chris is. What I mean by my comment is that I have a reasonable measure of natural musical ability, and that I did not invest the same time developing my gift the way that Chris and other greats did developing theirs.

The caveat in watching most great players is that they make it look so natural and easy. The truth is that in 99.9% of the cases, there is a HUGE investment in sweat-equity to achieve that ease!

Paul Poovey