View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Dave Converse Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 3316 Location: Nashville, Tn.
|
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:22 am Post subject: Jerry's Latest Tongue Tip Anchor |
|
|
I studied Jerry's techniques for a few years some years back, in effort to get around some chop problem that changed my career from musician to whatever. Had several phone lessons, and purchased and studied Yoga, SC, and Trumpet Secrets Books.
Jerry really got my tongue forward, improving my articulations greatly. But no improvement to either range or endurance. I've spent the past few years just experimenting with little success.
I recently viewed the DVD discs 1 and 2, watching #1 about 5 times. Early in the vid, Jerry mentions his "new embouchure" of only a day and a half. The vid makes a big point of anchoring the tip of the tongue outside the top lip, with the bottom lip pressing it in for extra support in keeping the top lip from collapsing into the mouthpiece.
My lessons with Jerry were at the point in his research that had the tongue tip anchored on the bottom lip. Was the shift to the top lip what he referred to as his "new embouchure" of a day and a half? And did he keep that thought until his passing?
Hoping someone (maybe Kyle) can shed some light here for me. Thanks in advance. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3353 Location: Endwell NY USA
|
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Would someone explain to me what Callet's term of 'tongue tip anchor' or 'tongue anchor position' means.
At what phase(s) of playing a long note is the tongue 'anchored'?
Is the position of the tongue, when it is 'anchored' always the same?
What does the tongue DO when it is not 'anchored'?
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dave Converse Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 3316 Location: Nashville, Tn.
|
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:01 pm Post subject: Jerry's Latest Tongue Tip Anchor |
|
|
Jay, I'm not getting any answers to my question, so I'll try to answer yours.
It's really hard coming into this movie in the middle of it. Jerry's method was really an ongoing research project with his new ideas sometimes mistaken as new methods. To the best of my understanding, everything Jerry taught was centered around a forward tongue position that keeps it through the opened teeth.
Jerry's earlier teaching had the tongue tip anchored (never disconnected from) behind the bottom lip, with articulation off the top of the tongue a ways back from the tip. As his research continued, it seems like the anchor point moved slightly further and further upward on the bottom lip.
The main point, I think, is that the tongue stays a part of the aperature formation, and helps the two lips in resisting the airstream to get compression.
I hope this helps and that I haven't misrepresented Jerry's concept. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3353 Location: Endwell NY USA
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the description. I haven't read much about various tonguing techniques or Callet's methods.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2175 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Jerry's Latest Tongue Tip Anchor |
|
|
Dave Converse wrote: | I recently viewed the DVD discs 1 and 2, watching #1 about 5 times. Early in the vid, Jerry mentions his "new embouchure" of only a day and a half. The vid makes a big point of anchoring the tip of the tongue outside the top lip, with the bottom lip pressing it in for extra support in keeping the top lip from collapsing into the mouthpiece.
My lessons with Jerry were at the point in his research that had the tongue tip anchored on the bottom lip. Was the shift to the top lip what he referred to as his "new embouchure" of a day and a half? And did he keep that thought until his passing? |
I think you have the timeline backwards. I think the DVD discs you mention are an earlier phase of Jerry's "new" embouchure. I took lessons with him at his basement studio in Staten Island after those DVDs were released. At an early lesson I had with him, Jerry had me put the tip of my tongue on the bottom lip and articulating with my curled tongue against my upper lip.
In a later lesson Jerry went so far as to have me use my tongue to roll my bottom lip against the outside of my bottom teethe, with the tip pushing against the outside of my bottom teethe, holding the bottom lip in place.
I never got comfortable with that position and moved back to putting the tip of my tongue on the red of my bottom lip. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dave Converse Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 3316 Location: Nashville, Tn.
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:47 am Post subject: Jerry's Latest Tongue Tip Anchor |
|
|
Thanks Jerry. I'll gladly stand corrected.
My studies with Jerry were around 2004. As I stated in my original post, my articulations are far better and more slotted than ever. No help, though with endurance or range. For many years, now, my tongue tip is anchored behind the top of my bottom lip, and never comes off. Articulations are back from the tip striking the back of my top lip. Lotsa' "POP" with that. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9108 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"Jerry's latest . ." Isn't Callet deceased? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
deleted_user_02066fd New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: | "Jerry's latest . ." Isn't Callet deceased? |
For over a year.
Kehaulani, you still have family in the islands? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9108 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
peanuts56 wrote: |
Kehaulani, you still have family in the islands? |
We are only one generation deep. When my father died, my mother went to live with my sister who had married an A.F. guy and were living in Texas. So . . no (darn it). _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Forte Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2002 Posts: 269 Location: please use e-mail below
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ralph is the torchbearer now.
Watch this YouTube video and send Ralph an email for the last drawing. Consider setting up a lesson with Ralph.
https://youtu.be/54EnnUX9SfE
Thanks,
Robert _________________ If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
deleted_user_02066fd New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
|
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: | peanuts56 wrote: |
Kehaulani, you still have family in the islands? |
We are only one generation deep. When my father died, my mother went to live with my sister who had married an A.F. guy and were living in Texas. So . . no (darn it). |
You Native Hawaiian? Although my wife grew up there she's Pake. My father in law was from Canton and my mother in law born local but her folks were from Canton as well. She has a few cousins with Hawaiian blood.
Looks like they're going on lockdown again. One of my ukulele buddies posts a lot on FB. We'd normally be over there in October for 5-6 weeks but not this year. If things are better in the spring we may go then. My brother in law's 80th b'day is in June. Time will tell. Stay safe. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
|
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
peanuts56 wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | peanuts56 wrote: |
Kehaulani, you still have family in the islands? |
We are only one generation deep. When my father died, my mother went to live with my sister who had married an A.F. guy and were living in Texas. So . . no (darn it). |
You Native Hawaiian? Although my wife grew up there she's Pake. My father in law was from Canton and my mother in law born local but her folks were from Canton as well. She has a few cousins with Hawaiian blood.
Looks like they're going on lockdown again. One of my ukulele buddies posts a lot on FB. We'd normally be over there in October for 5-6 weeks but not this year. If things are better in the spring we may go then. My brother in law's 80th b'day is in June. Time will tell. Stay safe. |
We are back to stay at home on the Island. The problem is, they are still letting tourists in, and those tourists know how to bypass the quarantine rules. The "Aunties" can only catch so many of the hundreds that fly in each day. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
|
Back to top |
|
|
deleted_user_02066fd New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
|
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
theslawdawg wrote: | peanuts56 wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | peanuts56 wrote: |
Kehaulani, you still have family in the islands? |
We are only one generation deep. When my father died, my mother went to live with my sister who had married an A.F. guy and were living in Texas. So . . no (darn it). |
You Native Hawaiian? Although my wife grew up there she's Pake. My father in law was from Canton and my mother in law born local but her folks were from Canton as well. She has a few cousins with Hawaiian blood.
Looks like they're going on lockdown again. One of my ukulele buddies posts a lot on FB. We'd normally be over there in October for 5-6 weeks but not this year. If things are better in the spring we may go then. My brother in law's 80th b'day is in June. Time will tell. Stay safe. |
We are back to stay at home on the Island. The problem is, they are still letting tourists in, and those tourists know how to bypass the quarantine rules. The "Aunties" can only catch so many of the hundreds that fly in each day. |
That's the problem. One of the cousins is a flight attendant for Hawaiian Airlines. Last contact I had with her she thought she was getting furloughed.
It's a tough break for her. I'm in Conn. and she grew up here. Mom is Filipino/Hawaiian and met the dad while he was stationed there. Dad is not in good health. She was able to get back to see them a lot if she was flying to Boston or NY.
I keep in touch with a few friends and talk to Led Kaapana on FB from time to time. All telling me how tough it is while the tourists are still allowed to visit.
You grow up there? Stay safe! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
|
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
peanuts56 wrote: | theslawdawg wrote: | peanuts56 wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | peanuts56 wrote: |
Kehaulani, you still have family in the islands? |
We are only one generation deep. When my father died, my mother went to live with my sister who had married an A.F. guy and were living in Texas. So . . no (darn it). |
You Native Hawaiian? Although my wife grew up there she's Pake. My father in law was from Canton and my mother in law born local but her folks were from Canton as well. She has a few cousins with Hawaiian blood.
Looks like they're going on lockdown again. One of my ukulele buddies posts a lot on FB. We'd normally be over there in October for 5-6 weeks but not this year. If things are better in the spring we may go then. My brother in law's 80th b'day is in June. Time will tell. Stay safe. |
We are back to stay at home on the Island. The problem is, they are still letting tourists in, and those tourists know how to bypass the quarantine rules. The "Aunties" can only catch so many of the hundreds that fly in each day. |
That's the problem. One of the cousins is a flight attendant for Hawaiian Airlines. Last contact I had with her she thought she was getting furloughed.
It's a tough break for her. I'm in Conn. and she grew up here. Mom is Filipino/Hawaiian and met the dad while he was stationed there. Dad is not in good health. She was able to get back to see them a lot if she was flying to Boston or NY.
I keep in touch with a few friends and talk to Led Kaapana on FB from time to time. All telling me how tough it is while the tourists are still allowed to visit.
You grow up there? Stay safe! |
No, I'm here for work.
There is one good point with the lack of a million tourists...you are able to see places that you normally wouldn't see here. We go to North Shore a lot now. Garlic shrimp, shave ice, and all other tasty treats with zero lines, and then an amazing sunset with zero instagram people around. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
|
Back to top |
|
|
deleted_user_02066fd New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
|
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
theslawdawg wrote: | peanuts56 wrote: | theslawdawg wrote: | peanuts56 wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | peanuts56 wrote: |
Kehaulani, you still have family in the islands? |
We are only one generation deep. When my father died, my mother went to live with my sister who had married an A.F. guy and were living in Texas. So . . no (darn it). |
You Native Hawaiian? Although my wife grew up there she's Pake. My father in law was from Canton and my mother in law born local but her folks were from Canton as well. She has a few cousins with Hawaiian blood.
Looks like they're going on lockdown again. One of my ukulele buddies posts a lot on FB. We'd normally be over there in October for 5-6 weeks but not this year. If things are better in the spring we may go then. My brother in law's 80th b'day is in June. Time will tell. Stay safe. |
We are back to stay at home on the Island. The problem is, they are still letting tourists in, and those tourists know how to bypass the quarantine rules. The "Aunties" can only catch so many of the hundreds that fly in each day. |
That's the problem. One of the cousins is a flight attendant for Hawaiian Airlines. Last contact I had with her she thought she was getting furloughed.
It's a tough break for her. I'm in Conn. and she grew up here. Mom is Filipino/Hawaiian and met the dad while he was stationed there. Dad is not in good health. She was able to get back to see them a lot if she was flying to Boston or NY.
I keep in touch with a few friends and talk to Led Kaapana on FB from time to time. All telling me how tough it is while the tourists are still allowed to visit.
You grow up there? Stay safe! |
No, I'm here for work.
There is one good point with the lack of a million tourists...you are able to see places that you normally wouldn't see here. We go to North Shore a lot now. Garlic shrimp, shave ice, and all other tasty treats with zero lines, and then an amazing sunset with zero instagram people around. |
Can't beat the food. I go to a gym in Kailua every morning when I'm there and still come back with an extra 5-7 pounds. I don't sit around playing with my phone while at the gym. I'm going the whole 90 minutes.
We get up to the North Shore quite a bit. I mostly play finger style ukulele these days. Usually head to Hawaii Music Supply up there to stock up on my favorite strings. One of my favorite places to eat is Kin Wah in Kaneohe on Kam Highway. Try the taro duck from there. Really good. We also go to the Pastelle Shop on School St a lot.
My brother in law lives in Kailua near Kainalu Elementary School and the vacation rental tourists from Japan are always riding their bike and not watching where they're going. I've almost hit someone 4-5 times. Enjoy the solitude while it lasts. Aloha |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dave Converse Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 3316 Location: Nashville, Tn.
|
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Forte wrote: | Ralph is the torchbearer now.
Watch this YouTube video and send Ralph an email for the last drawing. Consider setting up a lesson with Ralph.
https://youtu.be/54EnnUX9SfE
Thanks,
Robert |
Thanks Robert. With all the visiting about Hawaii, I was wondering what happened to the thread about Callet. Got a screen shot to study for a while. Thanks again. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
|
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dave Converse wrote: | Forte wrote: | Ralph is the torchbearer now.
Watch this YouTube video and send Ralph an email for the last drawing. Consider setting up a lesson with Ralph.
https://youtu.be/54EnnUX9SfE
Thanks,
Robert |
Thanks Robert. With all the visiting about Hawaii, I was wondering what happened to the thread about Callet. Got a screen shot to study for a while. Thanks again. |
Sorry Dave Converse. The thread is still here, didn't go anywhere. Just ignore the threads about shave ice and pulled pork...that stuff is boring. Mahalo! _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dave Converse Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 3316 Location: Nashville, Tn.
|
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:47 am Post subject: Jerry's Latest Tongue Tip Anchor |
|
|
No worries. We're all good. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
|
Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
Forte wrote: | Ralph is the torchbearer now.
Watch this YouTube video and send Ralph an email for the last drawing. Consider setting up a lesson with Ralph.
https://youtu.be/54EnnUX9SfE
Thanks,
Robert |
There's also a pretty active community on the Jerome Callet Master Superchops Facebook Group. You'll find a lot of Jerome's old pupils there who agree that Ralph's approach is a very poor representation of Jerome's life work. His attitude is divisive and his memory is somewhat "inaccurate".
Personally I've gained a lot of pupils who've approached him for lessons and then came to me when he was not able or willing to answer their questions, or improve their trumpet playing. _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/
Last edited by trumpetplanet on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
|
Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Jerry's Latest Tongue Tip Anchor |
|
|
Dave Converse wrote: | I studied Jerry's techniques for a few years some years back, in effort to get around some chop problem that changed my career from musician to whatever. Had several phone lessons, and purchased and studied Yoga, SC, and Trumpet Secrets Books.
Jerry really got my tongue forward, improving my articulations greatly. But no improvement to either range or endurance. I've spent the past few years just experimenting with little success.
I recently viewed the DVD discs 1 and 2, watching #1 about 5 times. Early in the vid, Jerry mentions his "new embouchure" of only a day and a half. The vid makes a big point of anchoring the tip of the tongue outside the top lip, with the bottom lip pressing it in for extra support in keeping the top lip from collapsing into the mouthpiece.
My lessons with Jerry were at the point in his research that had the tongue tip anchored on the bottom lip. Was the shift to the top lip what he referred to as his "new embouchure" of a day and a half? And did he keep that thought until his passing?
Hoping someone (maybe Kyle) can shed some light here for me. Thanks in advance. |
I don't know what other people would tell you these days about the specific thing you mention here but if you read the instructions that are on the DVD there is no mention of the "Ice Cream Lick". I found a thread once that said that Jerry didn't stick with that exact set-up for very long and there is little-to-no talk about it in the decade since the DVD was released.
There has been a fair amount of discussion about the precise tongue position that you should strive for and that is something that varies from person to person, which is why it was always good to contact Jerome when he was alive. He could have told you want you were doing and how to improve it. Having said that, the general tongue position is not complicated and generally speaking, over time, Jerome would always lead you back to that simple image associated with Secret 1 in the Trumpet Secrets book.
A couple of months back I posted a video on the Callet MSC Facebook group about teaching the Spit Buzz and it has had a lot of positive feedback. You may find it helpful.
Although a lot of emphasis is put on the tongue position you will not have the full benefit if your lips have a tendency to tighten and if the jaw closes as you ascend. When ascending a scale you may notice a pitch where the sound becomes less free and the you need to apply more effort to continue. This is the best sign that something has changed in your playing. It can often be observed too if you were to watch in a mirror or make a short film of yourself playing.
Remember: If it isn't easy, it's probably not right! Trust me when I say that you don't need the strength to lift a 32KG kettlebell in order to play a DHC as some would have you believe...
Of course the other kiss of death is overblowing. It's easy to get the tongue in place and still use too much air or to blow too hard. The result would be the collapse of the chops into the cup, or the initiation of any of the habits mentioned the previous paragraph.
Despite me being a proponent of TCE, I have had a bunch of people contact me to say that they've played their easiest high notes after applying the older "Legacy" Superchops ideas that I have written about on my blog. This isn't because TCE isn't working, it's because we don't allow TCE to work if everything else is wrong.
Kyle wrote a great post nearly 20 years ago about the different stages of TCE development loosely following the various eras of Jerome's books/teaching. It's well worth digging it up. _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|