tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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 Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Author
drdoct
Veteran Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 174
From: Griffin, GA
Posted: 2003-03-13 20:25
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Ok, I just got the book today, but I cant wait to start so started playing. I kinda understand the pushing upward with your chin muscle and down with the upper lip muscle. This makes my lips feel somewhat puckered but flat in the front. Now the tongue as I understand it kinda cushions the bottom lip off the teeth? I've been trying to get it all right in the mirror and think I look kinda funny, but I wonder if I'm pushing too hard up with my chin muscle (it doesnt go flat, but pokes out like the spot between your thumb and first finger when you close your hand) is that normal? I so wish I had gotten the book earlier so I coulda seen the SC guys in the Atlanta get together and see their setups. Ok, this post is going no where. Let me recap my questions if anyone can help.
1. should the tongue bulge be visable when setting up (like you've got a dip in your mouth)?
2. is there such a thing as pushing too much with your bottom chin muscle if you can still get air out?
Thanks o (thats my chin muscle )
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Forte
Regular Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2002
Posts: 59
From: please use e-mail below
Posted: 2003-03-13 20:42
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Hi,
Something that Bruce told me to do that helped me greatly, immediately, and later was not to push up with the chin, but rather think of pushing down with the top lip. I found that when I push "up" with my chin, the vibrating part of my top lip got so far above my front teeth I could not tongue on my lip! Pushing down with the top lip accomplishes the same thing as pushing "up", it is just a way to make sure you are not over doing the chin bunch (like I was). Also, the tongue should be in light contact, barely touching the bottom lip. When I play, the lower lip is pushed forward with air, creating an air pocket that the lower part of the mouthpiece rests on (my air pocket is little and is not very noticeable, but I can feel it). When I first started SC back in August, I over did just about everything. Try to relax everything (only small amounts of compression are need for work in the middle and low registers), and play with very WET LIPS. Playing with dry lips, at first, was the single most problem that hurt my progress (it took me about a month to figure it out by accident). Realizing, I have not yet fully developed SC, but I think I am about 60% there, so I hope some of the SC “heavy weights” will correct ME also.
Thanks,
Robert
[ This Message was edited by: Forte on 2003-03-13 20:44 ]
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-03-13 23:26
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1. should the tongue bulge be visable when setting up (like you've got a dip in your mouth)?
2. is there such a thing as pushing too much with your bottom chin muscle if you can still get air out?
A noticeable "tongue bulge" in the lower lip can be fine to get started. You have to get used to the full forward tongue, you have to strengthen the tongue, and you have to develop the bulge of support in the lower lip that cushions the mouthpiece. However, this is not a long term solution. Rather, in the long term, the pressure of the lower lip must be up against the tongue. That's what correctly creates the bulge, not a foward push of the lower lip.
Yes, the push of the lower chin has been drastically overdone by many. In fact, that's the primary ailment that caused Mr. Callet to stop recommending his Superchops manual and start working on TCE. TCE requires no manipulation of the lower lip at all. Correct use of the tongue absolutely forces the lower lip to behave itself correctly with no effort.
Best regards, Kyle
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drdoct
Veteran Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 174
From: Griffin, GA
Posted: 2003-03-14 06:45
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hey thanks!
It definately is hard to keep the tongue out but I notice my sound goes way down (this is just on the first exercise) if my tongue slips back. Not to say I'm doing ANYTHING right, but I definately noticed that my lips wernt tired at all after playing the first exercise 20-30 times, which is different from my old extreme smile and push when tired method. My chin muscle was a bit tingly though but that was from over bunching I guess.
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-03-14 10:57
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<<I notice my sound goes way down ... if my tongue slips back>>
This is why we SCers affirm that the iii-eee-ahh tongue archers are incorrect. You can hear it in the loss of focus, brilliance, and pitch just as soon as the tongue recedes. Tongue arching forces the tongue to recede. Plus, tongue arching pulls back at your corners, another no-no. As your ear gets better tuned you will hear this more and more. Best regards, Kyle
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Jeff Young
Regular Member
Joined: May 17, 2002
Posts: 30
From: Tennessee
Posted: 2003-03-14 22:42
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Thanks everyone for the fine points you've offered on this thread. One of the problems I used to wrestle with was how to keep my teeth wide open while at the same time bunching the chin and pushing the lower lip upward. The emphasis with the tongue controlled embouchure, however, is to rely on keeping the tongue wide across the teeth and compressing forward to play high notes. Practicing with this in mind has helped me to relax the jaw, open the teeth, and still maintain the desired compression with lip and tongue. I'm still fairly new to these concepts, but after only a few weeks I began to notice a lot of improvement in my tone and a reduction in mouthpiece pressure.
Kyle, help me if you can with this. Does the point of contact the tongue tip makes with the lower lip ever vary with changes in register? Sometimes I feel the tongue tip slip downwards on the lower teeth. Thanks!
Jeff Young
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oj
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 07, 2003
Posts: 165
From: Norway
Posted: 2003-03-15 04:29
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Kyle said:
"You can hear it in the loss of focus, brilliance, and pitch just as soon as the tongue recedes. Tongue arching forces the tongue to recede"
Absolutely!
Even simpler, just blow fast air with forward tongue and make the "aa-ee" thing.. (= pull tongue gently back).
Note how the "sissle" in the air rushing out dissapears!
To try to get the "sissle" back now, you really would have to start "overblowing"
See the point?
I have all Jerry's books and T.S. is so much more easy to grasp, than S.C.
As Kyle say: Just put the tounge forward and go!
(and keep a good opening between the teeth all the time)
Ole
P.S.
I've been working on a "Mendez Project" lately. I made my own practice CD by transfering his 21 single tongue studies from the Summid CD (where everything was on one track) to separate 21 tracks.
Now I use these Arban Singel Tongue Studies every day:
1. Pick 2 or 3 studies (different each day)
2. Listen to Mendez
3. Play it alone, very slow (every note as a solo)
4. Listen to Mendez again (and get a rest)
5. Play alone at full speed
6. Rest
7. Play along with Mendez
I do some of the exercises from T.S. (and from B.E) as well
- but Arban is more music and fun.
This has really sped up the forward tongue development - and developed the attack.
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-03-15 19:44
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<<Does the point of contact the tongue tip makes with the lower lip ever vary with changes in register? Sometimes I feel the tongue tip slip downwards on the lower teeth. Thanks! >>
No, I don't really feel it changing. It just kinda sits on top of the lower lip. Certainly, it shouldn't pull back behind the lower teeth. But as you tire, that is a natural result. That means you are trying to ascend more than you are ready to handle. Or, you are just starting to tire. Rest a bit (a couple of minutes), then go back at it! If you are still receding then work on lower stuff until you build more foundation. Best regards, Kyle
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Jeff Young
Regular Member
Joined: May 17, 2002
Posts: 30
From: Tennessee
Posted: 2003-03-15 22:48
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Thanks, Kyle, that answer makes total sense. I actually haven't had my tongue slip completely behind the lower teeth, but rather just a bit lower than where it would be at the beginning of practice. I think that you are correct to say that a bit of fatigue would be setting in and simply to rest a moment and get back at it. Lately I've found a foolproof way to get the tongue to the right setting. I just go back to Jerry's idea of spitting the hair off the lip but the hair never leaves. From that point I can spit buzz and know that I have the right set up.
Jeff Young |
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