SC and pedal tones

[tptguy]

Author
Jerry Freedman
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 243
From: Burlington, Massachusetts
Posted: 2003-02-12 16:24
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SuperChops has no mention of pedals but I am told that Trumpet Yoga did. Jeff Smiley's BE is supposed to be heavily influenced by Callet. I may have it wrong but the pedals described in TY were double pedals done with the bottom lip outside the mouthpiece ( this is how they are done in BE).

Trumpet Secrets mentions pedal tones in one of the exercises although not in great detail and I seem to remember Lee Adams, the premier expositor of SC, and host of this forum mentioning that he teaches pedals but not the double pedals described above. Could someone knowledgeable explain the relation of pedals to TY, SC and TS?

J. Freedman

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tomba51
Regular Member

Joined: Nov 25, 2001
Posts: 41
From: Long Island, NY
Posted: 2003-02-12 17:47
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Jerry,

Yes, you should do the double pedals. An especially good exercise is to do the double pedal (with the bottom lip out of the mouthpiece, using only the top lip), and then slide up to the low C or to the tuning C (which ever is easier for you). When you slide up from the pedal to the normal note, your embouchure will shift from being mostly on the top lip for the pedal, to being a "normal" placement on both lips for the normal note. This exercise is the 1st or 2nd exercise in the "Trumpet Yoga" book. I do it in all registers of the horn, for as long as I can stand it. If I could, I'd do it for an hour or more a day. It produces wonderful results, and really helps you to get used to playing with the "superchops" feel. It practically forces you to play with a bunched up chin and with loose corners. It also produces that "thick" feeling in the center of the lips that Jerry was always trying to get me to feel. Jerry recommends that you play this exercise triple f, with a big, centered sound. Unfortunately, boredom sets in after a while (plus the desire to make music rather than noise). When I do this exercise, I put a magazine or newspaper on the music stand, or I watch TV. It is truly "mindless" practice. I'm just putting in the time. There is no musical thought involved in this exercise.

I also incorporate this idea into all my musical practicing. For example, if I'm doing Clark Technical Studies, I'll start on a double pedal, then slur up to the first note of the exercise, and proceed to do the exercise from there.

Do yourself and everyone around you a favor, and use a mute for this exercise. When you're playing triple f pedals, and slurring up to loud centered notes, the ears can take quite a beating. Jerry Callet recommended the "stone-lined wa-wa du-all" mute for this purpose. It's a great practice mute, but it's a terrible harmon mute. If you get one, just use it as a practice mute, not on the gig. Actually, nowadays, I prefer the trumcor practice mute. (www.trumcor.com).

When I was studying with Jerry, he told me to NEVER do single pedals, only double pedals. He said that single pedals spread the embouchure too much. (This was about 15 years ago - I don't know if he's changed his thinking about any of this).

Hope this helps.

Tom

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musicians@thetee.com

[ This Message was edited by: tomba51 on 2003-02-12 18:29 ]

[ This Message was edited by: tomba51 on 2003-02-12 18:30 ]

[ This Message was edited by: tomba51 on 2003-02-13 16:16 ]

[ This Message was edited by: tomba51 on 2003-02-13 16:21 ]

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oj
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 07, 2003
Posts: 165
From: Norway
Posted: 2003-02-13 04:12
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Tom and Jerry,

I have been doing the new "tongue-controlled" system for a while - with good results.

Along the way, I've been thinking a lot about how to find good exercises
to help develop this new tonguing. To keep the tongue resting in the
forward position (over bottom teeth against bottom lip).

I have found some things, I think could be part of the first week of practice:

- spit buzz a'la Pops - low pitches with very relaxed corners and tongue taking part in the vibration
- open up the space between the teeth - helps the tongue stay forward
- play the first pedal F (semitone below low C#) with tongue very forward (as active part of "lower lip")
- playing from double pedal C down all 7 valve combination repeated notes (a'la B.E.) with strong attacks (ok - this one can be difficult if you haven't done double pedals)

Ole

P.S.
Perhaps Jeff Smiley will develop some exercises for this purpose?
What do you say, Jeff?

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trumpetteacher1
Veteran Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 263
From: Garland, Texas
Posted: 2003-02-13 21:40
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Jerry - you said "Could someone knowledgeable explain the relation of pedals to TY, SC and TS?"

There is no mystery here. Pedals were dropped when SC came out, and reintroduced (thanks to Kyle, I think) with TS. These pedals, done more or less as described by Tom above, are the only pedals promoted by Jerry Callet. Some of the benefits are also described by Tom. In addition, they focus your chops, both outwards (away from the teeth) and inwards (towards the center).

Ole - you said "Perhaps Jeff Smiley will develop some exercises for this purpose?" (learning tongue forward)

I think that the players spending the most time tinkering with it are the ones most likely to stumble on to better techniques. Jerry has established a foundation of knowledge which in some respects is absolutely amazing. But the process is so far "out there" that I can't honestly see it being taught in public schools in my lifetime. So, it is up to players like yourself, Ole, and players who have gone through the process, like Kyle, to find better methods of development, and prove to the world that this is more than just a crazy idea.

If I ever find a way to make this easy for my students, you'll be the first to know!

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

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Jerry Freedman
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 243
From: Burlington, Massachusetts
Posted: 2003-02-13 22:41
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I do the pedals from BE including the tongued pedals from double pedal C on down.

I would like to see Lee Adams weigh in here. I rememeber him talking about pedals once. Due to the private nature of this forum its hard to search it.

Anyone know why pedals were dropped in SC if they were so effective?

J. Freedman

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tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-02-13 23:51
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Jerry, I don't think they ever were dropped. As you know, before SC Jerry had a whole book out, "Trumpet Yoga", that was built entirely around his revolutionary version of pedal tones. The book was very successful for many people, but many others were not able to get it. Jerry's SC method was an attempt to hit those other people. But, he continued to use Yoga with all his students that I know. He had me doing the pedals from my first lesson. His feeling was that he had covered the pedals so he didn't need to put it in his new work. And keep in mind, his books have always been more like in-depth brochures rather than complete manuals. I saw Jerry this past Sunday and he preceded every demonstration with his Yoga setup. I must have seen him do it 20 times in an hour. Certainly, he hasn't abandoned using them or teaching them. For Jerry, they are 3 things: an invaluable aid to development, the best relaxation routine ever invented, and a true test of a properly developed embouchure. Best regards, Kyle

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oj
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 07, 2003
Posts: 165
From: Norway
Posted: 2003-02-14 02:23
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Kyle,

As you know, I will be asking Jerry about his discovery of the double pedals in an upcoming interview.

Here is what Jerry told Cozy in an interview:
(quote:)
Einzetzen, sitting in, and anzetzen, sitting on. Now, what I did, in the
bathroom practicing on November 13, 1970, I found I could go between
double pedal notes and the regular range by sliding the mouthpiece
up from the low register, pushing inside the rim - einzetzen - then anzetzen, sliding it, and bringing the lips back in. This completely negated the use of the corner muscles that everyone was taught to tighten, because you cannot tighten your lips and protrude and go into
the bass trombone register, then go back into the trumpet register.
And that is the start of (my) learning to play correctly. Until then I was able to play some high notes, but my corners were too tight.
(end quote)

As I understand his books (and development) - he has kept this main discovery (from November 13, 1970) the basis of his system.
In both TY and SC he uses tonguing between the teeth.

In his first book, "Trumpet Yoga" (1972), he says:

(quote)
I use the tongue through the teeth in all registers. With the unrolled lips, touch the top lip with the tip of the tongue. The simplest explanation is to tongue by "spitting a particle from the tip of the lip." When you use this tonguing through the teeth you will use more air than when tonguing behind the teeth.
(end quote)

In his next book "Superchops" (1987), he says:
(quote)
The tip of your tongue must strike the inner part of your lips through your open teeth. This action is exactly like spitting. I usually make my students practice what I call a spit buzz. This is done without the mouthpiece, it combines the tongue striking the compressed lips, with full air, creating an attack and a buzzing sound.
(end quote)

In T.S. he keeps the tongue resting in the forward position all the
time. This is a simplification of the whole concept that IMO make it more easy to learn than S.C. with all its different possitions.
(and by using Jeff's great B.E. book with its powerful exercises)

It also makes a connection to the brass history - to ideas that have been used for maybe 300 years or more.

Jean-François Madeuf (who took over as leader of the Bad Sackingen Trumpet Museum after Ed. Tarr) told me that French hunting hornplayers of "ancienne école" used this technique.
Jerry shows in T.S. that Jules Levy used it and perhaps Couturier and other cornent soloists as well.

Regards,
Ole

[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2003-02-14 02:27 ]

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Jerry Freedman
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 243
From: Burlington, Massachusetts
Posted: 2003-02-14 05:08
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In TS. Callet shows that between the teeth tongueing was used earlier. Its not all that radical. Leon Merian, who has little intersection with Callet teaches it and taught it years ago. I don't think Callet establishes that the the very forward tongue, almost to the point of being a 3rd vibrating surface, was used previously. I have heard that the extremely forward tongue was used by German horn players a long time ago.

J. Freedman

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trumpetteacher1
Veteran Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 263
From: Garland, Texas
Posted: 2003-02-14 08:43
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Kyle,

I never said that Jerry stopped teaching pedals in his private teaching. I have no way of knowing this. I do know, however, that they were not included in the SC book.

You know that I don't like to argue with you Kyle, as you are one of the fairest people that I have met here in cyber space, and I consider your teaching ability to be superior to Jerry in many ways. But this idea that Jerry has continuously maintained a holistic view of his methodology while at different times emphasizing the parts, is contrary to my experience.

For example, when I met with Jerry (around the time SC first appeared) he was not talking about pedals at all. During a clinic, he never mentioned them, much to my disappointment. At the very end, I asked him to demonstrate pedals. He said, "Oh, you mean this?" and proceeded to play one for about 3 seconds. And that was the end of it. The attitude that he clearly communicated was that pedals were not that important.

I think that you (and others) have had a greater influence on his current thinking than you might imagine.

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

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Jerry Freedman
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 243
From: Burlington, Massachusetts
Posted: 2003-02-14 16:01
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I have SC+the video and TS. I also have BE. I am studying with a Callet disciple. I think that Callet has wonderful ideas and insight, not afraid to try something radical. He has produced marvelous students. That being said I don't think he communicates well with his written materials. I haven't seen TY but the other two books consist of some text in which a lot of information is presented in a highly condensed fashion followed by exercises with almost no explanation or connection to the text. It would take a rare talent to learn SC or TS from the books alone ( BE is on the other end of the spectrum - its so well presented it would take a rare "talent" to screw it up). SC/TS really needs dedicated, knowlegeable and patient expositors like Lee Adams and Kyle.

J. Freedman

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Dave Converse
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-02-14 20:46
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I can't believe I've been working on the SC embouchure for 2 years and am just now finding out about exercises starting on double pedals and slurring up to the normal register. Wow, that sounds like a GREAT idea. Man, I wish the Trumpet Yoga book was still available. Really glad we have you guys on this board to fill in these little "details." Keep 'em coming.

Dave C.

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tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-02-14 22:50
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Jeff, I don't think we are differing. Even though you both used the same phrasing, I was responding to Jerry F.'s question. In my experience, Jerry C. still strongly believes in and uses double pedals in his instruction as well as his personal practice. I'm not saying that he covered the pedals again in the SC manual, just that he continued to teach and use them during that period as well as the present. I think all three of us (Jerry C., you, and I) agreee that they are guten stoff. Best always, Kyle

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The General
Veteran Member

Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 343
From: Londonderry, NH 603-421-9178
Posted: 2003-02-18 09:51
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Building "Superchops" has always been described as building from the "bottom" up. If you can find the focus, playing double-pedals, the foundation becomes stronger.

The only way to achieve the double-pedals, is to have the tongue forward. I view the top of the tongue as being on the same "plane" as the lower lip. For double-pedals, that means that it has to be in alignment with the fleshy inner part of the lower lip... in the "wedged" position... tip down.

As range increases, so does lip compression... roll-in, bunched-chin, yada, yada. Air compression has to increase at the same time... in BALANCED manner, with the EMBOUCHURE, if range is to increase.

There is a physical position, for the tongue, that exists for each overtone. That position has to be maintained, no matter what register of the horn we are talking about. The notes in between the overtones are merely acheived by lengthening the tubing of our instrument.

Maybe some of this will help. I hope that it does!

Best regards,
Bruce



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... "Dedicated to the Comeback Trumpet Player"

[ This Message was edited by: The General on 2003-02-18 09:53 ]