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Phattlippz Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 117 Location: East Aurora, NY
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:55 am Post subject: Bitsch / Vingt Études - Not. 1 |
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Man, I struggle with Étude 1! Anybody worked this up, or worked on it with a trumpet teacher? If so, is it recommended to single or double-tongue it?
I can't get near the suggested 132 bpm with a single-tonguing approach, particularly some of those tricky measures about 1/2 way through.
I'd love to hear any pointers from those that know this study! _________________ *******************************
1952 Martin Committee #2
1941 Martin Handcraft Committee #2
1964 The Martin Committee Deluxe L
1937 Martin Imperial Handcraft
2019 Bach Stradivarius 72 MLV
1937 King Master Cornet
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Phattlippz Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 117 Location: East Aurora, NY
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:29 am Post subject: |
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VERY nice! Thanks - I've never heard anyone play it before...
_________________ *******************************
1952 Martin Committee #2
1941 Martin Handcraft Committee #2
1964 The Martin Committee Deluxe L
1937 Martin Imperial Handcraft
2019 Bach Stradivarius 72 MLV
1937 King Master Cornet
******************************* |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Cool recording of Jim Wilt. That's a fun series he has.
For me the single tonguing speed isn't an issue because doing K Tongue Modified single tonguing like Claude Gordon and Herbert L. Clarke and others have taught. Look into that because it really helps in many ways regarding speed, accuracy, ease in high register, and endurance.
On that etude flutter tonguing is the thing I have had to work on because I rarely do that doing out of the staff feels so weird. I remember having to work up gradually from the low register to the G on the staff and that area to keep the flutter tongue happening.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
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Phattlippz Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 117 Location: East Aurora, NY
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Jeff! I really don't know anything about the k tongue modified sing tongue - is there a reference you would recommend?
The flutter tonguing note is also giving me problems! I'll probably set up an exercise starting on C and working chromatically upwards.
So far, working with the Stevens book "After Schlossberg", on the 16th-note tonguing exercises has helped, but it's quite a ways off, especially towards the middle of the etude where there's some very tricky "slur 2 tongue 2" passages.
Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Cool recording of Jim Wilt. That's a fun series he has.
For me the single tonguing speed isn't an issue because doing K Tongue Modified single tonguing like Claude Gordon and Herbert L. Clarke and others have taught. Look into that because it really helps in many ways regarding speed, accuracy, ease in high register, and endurance.
On that etude flutter tonguing is the thing I have had to work on because I rarely do that doing out of the staff feels so weird. I remember having to work up gradually from the low register to the G on the staff and that area to keep the flutter tongue happening.
Jeff |
_________________ *******************************
1952 Martin Committee #2
1941 Martin Handcraft Committee #2
1964 The Martin Committee Deluxe L
1937 Martin Imperial Handcraft
2019 Bach Stradivarius 72 MLV
1937 King Master Cornet
******************************* |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:06 am Post subject: |
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"K Tongue Modified" is the term Claude Gordon used to describe a specific way of single tonguing he taught. He got it from Herbert L. Clarke but lots of great players do it even if they don't understand they are doing it.
Some people call it "anchor tonguing" but that's not really a good way to describe it either because you don't want your tongue "anchored". Some people have called it "dorsal tonguing" which I think is kind of odd too.
You can read Clarke's really brief mention of it in his Characteristic Studies book at the bottom of page 5. Basically, the VERY tip of your tongue stays in contact with the top edge of the bottom teeth and you produce the T attack just slightly back from the VERY tip. How far back? Not very far. To me if feels about an eighth of an inch or so. The point is that the VERY tip isn't going up and down to the back of the top teeth. Instead you are using that area just behind the VERY tip to produce the T. Claude used the KTM term because when you K tongue you are using the middle portion of your tongue and this is like modifying it and tonguing more on the front-middle portion of the tongue. It's also one of the reasons both Claude and Herbert L. Clarke do so much K tonguing. By imposing your attack with K and speed with K it will in time transform your single tonguing to work a different way. Look at page 8 in Clarke's Characteristic Studies and you can see he talks about K by itself. Lots of people miss that because they don't read the text and just start playing things. You can also in Claude's Daily Trumpet Routines how he does K by itself and a bunch of other models.
The reason whey KTM is so crucial is that it doesn't interfere with arch in the front of the tongue that everyone does even if they don't realize it. That arch is how we move around the horn and can feel and control each pitch more than just feeling it with our lips. For single tonguing tonguing with KTM means that the tongue doesn't move as much and in time you can single much faster with KTM. I believe it's the most misunderstood item and not doing it holds people back more than any other element of playing.
Here's a page with a video presentation where I quickly summarize Claude's main points in 30 minutes. I hope it gives you some new things to think about in your practice and helps you.
https://www.purtle.com/virtual-internet-trumpet-gathering-2020-claude-gordon-jeff-purtle
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Cool recording of Jim Wilt. That's a fun series he has. | Fun doesn't seem to do it justice. I'm agog that he's produced so many excellent recordings of some pretty taxing and difficult material, and in such a short period of time. Truly inspirational to me. To paraphrase Good as it Gets, it makes me want to be a better player. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff_Purtle wrote: | "K Tongue Modified" is the term Claude Gordon used to describe a specific way of single tonguing he taught. He got it from Herbert L. Clarke but lots of great players do it even if they don't understand they are doing it.
Some people call it "anchor tonguing" but that's not really a good way to describe it either because you don't want your tongue "anchored". Some people have called it "dorsal tonguing" which I think is kind of odd too.
You can read Clarke's really brief mention of it in his Characteristic Studies book at the bottom of page 5. Basically, the VERY tip of your tongue stays in contact with the top edge of the bottom teeth and you produce the T attack just slightly back from the VERY tip. How far back? Not very far. To me if feels about an eighth of an inch or so. The point is that the VERY tip isn't going up and down to the back of the top teeth. Instead you are using that area just behind the VERY tip to produce the T. Claude used the KTM term because when you K tongue you are using the middle portion of your tongue and this is like modifying it and tonguing more on the front-middle portion of the tongue. It's also one of the reasons both Claude and Herbert L. Clarke do so much K tonguing. By imposing your attack with K and speed with K it will in time transform your single tonguing to work a different way. Look at page 8 in Clarke's Characteristic Studies and you can see he talks about K by itself. Lots of people miss that because they don't read the text and just start playing things. You can also in Claude's Daily Trumpet Routines how he does K by itself and a bunch of other models.
The reason whey KTM is so crucial is that it doesn't interfere with arch in the front of the tongue that everyone does even if they don't realize it. That arch is how we move around the horn and can feel and control each pitch more than just feeling it with our lips. For single tonguing tonguing with KTM means that the tongue doesn't move as much and in time you can single much faster with KTM. I believe it's the most misunderstood item and not doing it holds people back more than any other element of playing.
Here's a page with a video presentation where I quickly summarize Claude's main points in 30 minutes. I hope it gives you some new things to think about in your practice and helps you.
https://www.purtle.com/virtual-internet-trumpet-gathering-2020-claude-gordon-jeff-purtle
Jeff |
I seem to recall Claude's annotations in the Arban method clarifying the 'tu' syllable being correctly pronounced as the French would pronounce it: closer to 'tew' - which, if done correctly, results in the tongue positions you described. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Correct.
Also, notice that Arban said the tongue moves in a “retrograde” movement. That only happens when single tonguing with KTM. And, Arban says the lips don’t buzz when playing. He says that in the last page of text before the first exercises in the book.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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Phattlippz Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 117 Location: East Aurora, NY
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:04 am Post subject: |
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This I don't understand - how can a tone be produced without buzzing?
Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Correct.
And, Arban says the lips don’t buzz when playing. He says that in the last page of text before the first exercises in the book.
Jeff |
_________________ *******************************
1952 Martin Committee #2
1941 Martin Handcraft Committee #2
1964 The Martin Committee Deluxe L
1937 Martin Imperial Handcraft
2019 Bach Stradivarius 72 MLV
1937 King Master Cornet
******************************* |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Here's Arban's quote on page 10 of the Carl Fischer Edition, Annotated by Claude Gordon:
"Under no circumstances should the cheeks ever be puffed out nor should the lips make noise in the mouthpiece even though many performers appear to think otherwise."
This is about being less oriented to thinking your lips play the trumpet and more focused on coordinating tongue level and wind power. When it works correctly it really doesn't feel like your lips are doing much. Of course the lips vibrate to produce sound but they are responding to the air.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Phattlippz wrote: | This I don't understand - how can a tone be produced without buzzing?
Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Correct.
And, Arban says the lips don’t buzz when playing. He says that in the last page of text before the first exercises in the book.
Jeff |
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To produce a free buzz (no horn) the lips need to oscillate between open and closed. With the horn once the note is started it creates a standing wave and an oscillation of the lips that don't necessarily need to fully close. I could be wrong. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Phattlippz Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 117 Location: East Aurora, NY
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:35 am Post subject: |
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I see; more of a conceptual thing.
Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Here's Arban's quote on page 10 of the Carl Fischer Edition, Annotated by Claude Gordon:
"Under no circumstances should the cheeks ever be puffed out nor should the lips make noise in the mouthpiece even though many performers appear to think otherwise."
This is about being less oriented to thinking your lips play the trumpet and more focused on coordinating tongue level and wind power. When it works correctly it really doesn't feel like your lips are doing much. Of course the lips vibrate to produce sound but they are responding to the air.
Jeff |
_________________ *******************************
1952 Martin Committee #2
1941 Martin Handcraft Committee #2
1964 The Martin Committee Deluxe L
1937 Martin Imperial Handcraft
2019 Bach Stradivarius 72 MLV
1937 King Master Cornet
******************************* |
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Back to top |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Sort of. But, I really don’t ever sense my lips vibrating like when someone buzzes the mouthpiece. If I take my mouthpiece off while playing a not there isn’t a buzzing sound. Some people try to make that happen and I personally feel it adds more tension. The trumpet is a tube that has resonant frequencies or harmonics or overtones. Those are determined by the length of the tube. When we practice flexibility studies it allows us to experience the coordination of tongue level and wind power so we can hear and feel how to play easier. Claude would say “The air does the work! The tongue channels the pitch!” and “Let the air save your lip!” You have to practice certain exercises to train that and that’s why practicing the trumpet matters. When the mouthpiece is buzzed by itself the tube is shorter and you won’t experience those harmonics at all unless you were maybe buzzing higher than a triple high c. Claude would always say buzzing doesn’t feel the same and that we play the trumpet and not the mouthpiece. I believe my above explanation shows how even various buzzing devices can’t ever feel like the trumpet because the resonating length is gone.
That’s why stuff like Walter Smith Lip Flexibility Studies, and Colin’s Advanced Lip Flexibility Studies, and Irons’ 27 Groups of Exercises and Claude Gordon’s Daily Trumpet Routines must be in our daily practice routine.
I know the original post was about tonguing. This is indirectly related to that topic because tongue level works best with KTM single tonguing.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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Phattlippz Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 117 Location: East Aurora, NY
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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No, this is all great stuff, and certainly a part of putting together the mechanics that can allow consistent tonguing (and other aspects of playing) to happen.
Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Sort of. But, I really don’t ever sense my lips vibrating like when someone buzzes the mouthpiece. If I take my mouthpiece off while playing a not there isn’t a buzzing sound. Some people try to make that happen and I personally feel it adds more tension. The trumpet is a tube that has resonant frequencies or harmonics or overtones. Those are determined by the length of the tube. When we practice flexibility studies it allows us to experience the coordination of tongue level and wind power so we can hear and feel how to play easier. Claude would say “The air does the work! The tongue channels the pitch!” and “Let the air save your lip!” You have to practice certain exercises to train that and that’s why practicing the trumpet matters. When the mouthpiece is buzzed by itself the tube is shorter and you won’t experience those harmonics at all unless you were maybe buzzing higher than a triple high c. Claude would always say buzzing doesn’t feel the same and that we play the trumpet and not the mouthpiece. I believe my above explanation shows how even various buzzing devices can’t ever feel like the trumpet because the resonating length is gone.
That’s why stuff like Walter Smith Lip Flexibility Studies, and Colin’s Advanced Lip Flexibility Studies, and Irons’ 27 Groups of Exercises and Claude Gordon’s Daily Trumpet Routines must be in our daily practice routine.
I know the original post was about tonguing. This is indirectly related to that topic because tongue level works best with KTM single tonguing.
Jeff |
_________________ *******************************
1952 Martin Committee #2
1941 Martin Handcraft Committee #2
1964 The Martin Committee Deluxe L
1937 Martin Imperial Handcraft
2019 Bach Stradivarius 72 MLV
1937 King Master Cornet
******************************* |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Here's Arban's quote on page 10 of the Carl Fischer Edition, Annotated by Claude Gordon:
"Under no circumstances should the cheeks ever be puffed out nor should the lips make noise in the mouthpiece even though many performers appear to think otherwise."
This is about being less oriented to thinking your lips play the trumpet and more focused on coordinating tongue level and wind power. When it works correctly it really doesn't feel like your lips are doing much. Of course the lips vibrate to produce sound but they are responding to the air.
Jeff |
Where does Arban talk about tongue level?
All I can find on that subject is an annotation by Claude.
I would agree about the lips responding to the air. I recently read a blog post by Nick Drosdoff that questioned whether or not we should make our lips buzz when we play.
https://www.nickdrozdoff.com/post/2019/02/12/do-we-need-to-make-the-lips-vibrate-when-we-play
Sometimes I'll see videos of people demonstrating that the lips "don't buzz when we play" and it is shown by someone sustaining a note (usually a Low C) and pulling the horn off the mpc. When the sound stops they say, "see, the lips don't buzz."
What I get from that little demonstration is not that the lips don't buzz but that a well formed embouchure responds to the air and the acoustics of the instrument.
That said, I do believe there can be value in either lip or mouthpiece buzzing when done correctly and on a limited basis. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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