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Looking for cornets that play like a trumpet


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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
The OP asked for a cornet that plays like a trumpet. Not a cornet that sounds like a trumpet. As long as you are using a cornet mouthpiece, the cornet will not play like a trumpet. It just won't.

A cornet, even with a trumpet style cup, still asks you to focus your sound into the horn and not through the horn as does a trumpet.

Yes, there is still a benefit to playing a cornet to keep your chops up, but it is not going to train you to play the trumpet.


Good catch Richard. I apologize for misreading, and perhaps agitating Delano. However, I still stand behind my answer of Bach 181-37 as it is quite an easy transition from trumpet to cornet.
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I'm confused. With the myriad of makes and models of trumpets, why can't you find one that you like, vs. a cornet?

abundrefo wrote:
The reason I'm looking for that kind of instrument (a cornet that plays like a trumpet) is to avoid buying a pocket trumpet. I'm looking for a compact wrap .460 bore instrument that plays and sounds great.
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Looking for cornets that play like a trumpet Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
abundrefo wrote:
"If you need a cornet that plays like a trumpet, just buy a trumpet!"
I know, I know...

The reason I'm looking for that kind of instrument is to avoid buying a pocket trumpet. I'm looking for a compact wrap .460 bore instrument that plays and sounds great.

I'm considering both used and new instruments.

Thank you.


I'm a little confused.

Long cornets that sound like trumpets are invariably almost as long as trumpets - the Mendez is so close you can't tell which you have without checking the markings, as was the case with some of Bach's cornet-in-leadpipe-only experiments.

If you need compact form, why not a Carol pocket or similar? What is the reasoning there? (Robb Stewart has built pockets that are virtually indistinguishable from the full size horns in sound and feel - not sure what you are after here)

abundrefo wrote:
BraeGrimes wrote:
Wait, why not a pocket trumpet?

I think a cornet wrap would give me a better sound. I used to have a Manchester Brass pocket that I liked but the sound was nothing special.
There are more expensive pocket trumpets I'd consider but some of these models are more expensive than a good cornet.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen 300 student cornet. I had one that I used for outdoor strolling gigs and dixieland gigs. It was great. Now have a Getzen Capri.
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This exact cornet, at 3:07, would do the job.
It's a small "American-wrap" cornet that sounds like what I'm looking for:


Link
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abundrefo wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
I'm confused. With the myriad of makes and models of trumpets, why can't you find one that you like, vs. a cornet?

abundrefo wrote:
The reason I'm looking for that kind of instrument (a cornet that plays like a trumpet) is to avoid buying a pocket trumpet. I'm looking for a compact wrap .460 bore instrument that plays and sounds great.

That says what he's doing, not why he's doing it.
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dfcoleman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:05 pm    Post subject: Bach 181 with trumpet receiver Reply with quote

I have a Bach 181 cornet with a trumpet mouthpiece receiver and a 72 bell. Plays great.
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
abundrefo wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
I'm confused. With the myriad of makes and models of trumpets, why can't you find one that you like, vs. a cornet?

abundrefo wrote:
The reason I'm looking for that kind of instrument (a cornet that plays like a trumpet) is to avoid buying a pocket trumpet. I'm looking for a compact wrap .460 bore instrument that plays and sounds great.

That says what he's doing, not why he's doing it.

"why can't you find one (trumpet) that you like, vs. a cornet?"
Because I'm not looking for a trumpet. There are a lot of trumpets that I like. I'm not looking for trumpets right now.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
The OP asked for a cornet that plays like a trumpet. Not a cornet that sounds like a trumpet. As long as you are using a cornet mouthpiece, the cornet will not play like a trumpet. It just won't.

A cornet, even with a trumpet style cup, still asks you to focus your sound into the horn and not through the horn as does a trumpet.

Yes, there is still a benefit to playing a cornet to keep your chops up, but it is not going to train you to play the trumpet.


I have to second this. At the end of the day, while you can train certain fundamentals on cornet for trumpet, you cant realistically prepare to perform on trumpet using a cornet - of any kind. (and this comes from a guy that practices on a .438 bore 97 year old trumpet to perform on a 466 bore 2 year old one)
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BRSpringer
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abundrefo wrote:
This exact cornet, at 3:07, would do the job.
It's a small "American-wrap" cornet that sounds like what I'm looking for:


Link


Bob Schulz sat in with our band a couple of years ago when he was in town. He was playing an Olds “The Olds” cornet. That looks like the same one in this video. It was definitely more compact than my King Silversonic. Last I checked, Rich Ita has one for sale on his website.

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huntman10
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most "Trumpety cornet" I have played is the Olds Studio (The one with the "S" shaped leadpipe, not the later underslung a La King Master or Reynolds Contempora wrap). And I have played just about every cornet you can imagine, presently owning over 20, and have been playing cornet for 60 years.

Find one of the Olds Studio with the standard cornet receiver (Olds before about 250,000 serial number had wide receivers requiring a special mouthpiece shank). The bright nickel bell flair, and tight bell makes this 0.468" bore cornet sound very trumpety, and the tighter wrap even FELLS like a trumpet in your hand.

I once tried to build a collection around "The great cornets of the 40's, 50's, and 60's.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cornet in that video is an Olds Standard, made 1930-1942. Nick DeCarlis plays those. It is an exceptional jazz cornet - not something I would ever confuse with a trumpet.

http://www.trumpet-history.com/Virtual%20Museum_files/newpic005.JPG
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably I was a bit hard on A.J. Carter though I still think his first comment on my post is, let's say not OK. My main objections to a lot of the posts here is that the posters seem to think they know the goals and wishes of the OP better than he knows them himself even after explaining his wishes in detail.
Further, I am not surprised by the reaction of Richard III, he has his own ideas about trumpets and they are not very positive. He must know that a substantial part of the cornet mouthpieces are trumpet mouthpieces with a cornet shank, so that part of his comment I can't fully understand. The distinction between 'plays' like a cornet and 'sounds' like a cornet is to a certain degree artificial because the feedback of a horn 'feeds' the playing characteristics.
Whether you can learn to play the trumpet by playing a cornet yes or no I don't know. We need the comment of qualified teachers of the instruments for conclusions about that. I do a lot of exercises on cornet but I consider myself as a trumpet player though nowadays I play mainly a rotary trumpet which may be seen as not being a real trumpet by some.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have huge respect for delano even though we disagree on many things.

His comments are well made.

Personally I think it is not enough to decide what instrument might fit the bill, this might work if the OP were in Chicago, but the OP is in Brazil.

Choices will I believe be limited or very expensive due to high shipping charges or both.

The seller of a perfect instrument on ebay in the USA for example might refuse international shipping.

The op may have to relax some requirements to avoid a lengthy wait to get the perfect instrument.

An Olds Special cornet and a yamaha ycr2330 play differently but with the right mouthpiece an Olds Special cornet can sound and play very similar to the ycr2330 in my opinion.

Stick a deep vee cornet mouthpiece in a trumpet and it becomes a different beast.

So the right mouthpiece can make a less than perfect instrument pretty damn perfect.

Choosing mouthpiece options to meet the OP tonal requirements should therefore not be ignored and should be considered as being helpful in meeting the OPs needs here.

It is not only the instrument that delivers the playing characteristics it is the combination of instrument and mouthpiece that will give the OP what he wants.

Maybe the discussion could be widened.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP may be asking the question because when you talk about pocket trumpets, many people say, "just buy a cornet." A cornet is also recommended for small group gigs where it's less overpowering than a trumpet. Given those constraints, I would probably just look for a good mainstream used cornet (Yamaha, Jupiter, etc.) with a conventional (not super deep) mouthpiece. I have an Olds and a White and like both of them and they'd be fine replacements for a trumpet.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Yes, there is still a benefit to playing a cornet to keep your chops up, but it is not going to train you to play the trumpet.


I disagree, strongly.

Staying in practice on cornets allows me to pick up a trumpet a feel in great shape - the transition is an easy one.
The converse is not true - staying in practice on trumpets does not really help my cornet playing, the transition is much more difficult.

Anecdotally, at least, I don't know any serious players who find the opposite.
I've had several very serious players remark on this curious state of affairs - both those who are primarily trumpet players and those that are primarily cornet players.

I know this is tangential... But I certainly wouldn't worry that practicing on cornet would cause problems for trumpet playing.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Yes, there is still a benefit to playing a cornet to keep your chops up, but it is not going to train you to play the trumpet.


I disagree, strongly.

Staying in practice on cornets allows me to pick up a trumpet a feel in great shape - the transition is an easy one.
The converse is not true - staying in practice on trumpets does not really help my cornet playing, the transition is much more difficult.

Anecdotally, at least, I don't know any serious players who find the opposite.
I've had several very serious players remark on this curious state of affairs - both those who are primarily trumpet players and those that are primarily cornet players.

I know this is tangential... But I certainly wouldn't worry that practicing on cornet would cause problems for trumpet playing.


I guess we see things differently. I can switch between cornet and trumpet with no negative impact of one on the other yes, but the technique is vastly different. Therefore, if I am getting ready to play something on trumpet (I'm not good enough to just read once and go on these little horns), I would be insane to prepare on cornet - everything I condition myself to in control of the horn would be wrong - and the performance would be awful. The same is true going the other way.
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:51 am    Post subject: Widen the question Reply with quote

Bflatman
Yes. It would be relevant to the discussion to know what horns are available in Brazil.
What would be your recommendations to expand this discussion?
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
TKSop wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Yes, there is still a benefit to playing a cornet to keep your chops up, but it is not going to train you to play the trumpet.


I disagree, strongly.

Staying in practice on cornets allows me to pick up a trumpet a feel in great shape - the transition is an easy one.
The converse is not true - staying in practice on trumpets does not really help my cornet playing, the transition is much more difficult.

Anecdotally, at least, I don't know any serious players who find the opposite.
I've had several very serious players remark on this curious state of affairs - both those who are primarily trumpet players and those that are primarily cornet players.

I know this is tangential... But I certainly wouldn't worry that practicing on cornet would cause problems for trumpet playing.


I guess we see things differently. I can switch between cornet and trumpet with no negative impact of one on the other yes, but the technique is vastly different. Therefore, if I am getting ready to play something on trumpet (I'm not good enough to just read once and go on these little horns), I would be insane to prepare on cornet - everything I condition myself to in control of the horn would be wrong - and the performance would be awful. The same is true going the other way.


Sure, performance on a particular instrument is always going to be helped by practice on that specific instrument...

What I'm getting at is for some reason it seems to be significantly easier to pick up trumpets and prepare/perform when you're "in practice" on cornet than it is the other way around... as in, when in practice on cornet, trumpet doesn't feel as alien or as difficult to control as it does when going the other way.
I'm not quite sure why, though.

Perhaps this is more marked at higher levels of ability? (I don't know anything about your playing but I get the impression trumpet/cornet isn't your main focus?)
I would say it's become more marked as my playing has improved (and I guess you could say I play at a pretty high level) and several people who have also said this to me have been active at very high levels of playing (including two friends who both played solo cornet at Dyke, one of whom went on to play sop for YBS - both of whom consider themselves more trumpet than cornet players!).
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jondrow my thoughts on expanding the discussion are restricted to thoughts of mouthpiece options to assist the OP in manipulating the tones of whatever cornet can be purchased.

For example if the OP wants a bright sounding cornet then a ycr2330 with the stock 11e4 mouthpiece is unlikely to have as close a tonal match as an Olds Special might but a ycr2330 paired to a Bach 3c might do the trick.

So if the Olds is the best choice but only a ycr2330 is available then it can be made to work

Long cornets are the natural tonal choice and it would be easy to suggest a long cornet but the OP wants a short cornet and that pushes him in the direction of dark tonality. for this reason an informed mouthpiece choice might resolve this enigma.

I am unfamiliar with the Brazilian instrument market and instruments available there so it would be irresponsible of me to make instrument suggestions.

One way forward is to understand the OP's tonal needs first and then to fit those to an instrument and a mouthpiece so that the pairing delivers the tones required, like for example an Olds Special matched to a Bach 3d.

I am only making an example here I dont know if the Olds and the 3d will deliver the required tones because I am unsure what the OP really wants tonally.

I personally have a range of mouthpieces and a range of instruments with different natural tonalities and because of having a range of mouthpiece sizes and cup shapes to choose from I can chase tones and produce my desired tones whatever instrument I pick up. It is about correct pairings.

Another way forward is for the OP to acquire a few pieces in advance of the cornet. for example a Bach 3c and a Bach 3e and then when a cornet appears the OP can use the piece that comes with it or one of his purchased mouthpieces to help get the tones out of the bell that are in his head.

Again I am unable to make mouthpiece suggestions as I dont understand the tones the OP wants to generate.

I was hoping that members might be able to use their knowledge to suggest a horn and a couple of mouthpieces and an explanation of what each combination delivers tonally.

The OP will then know which mouthpiece to order to accompany the horn that he chooses.
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