Triple: TKT to TTK ...

Memran · Regular Member Joined: 29 Dec 2003 Posts: 11

In the beginning I was taught to triple with TKT and have been doing so for as long as I can remember, however with little success.
I find that on longer passages of triplet 16ths, it sounds almost as two straight 32nds and a 16th.
Someone suggested trying TTK (as I found out later is the method in Arban and many others.), however I am finding it extremely difficult to do - stuck in the old habit I guess...
Is this change actually worth doing of should I continue to work on TKT until I get it clean?
Thanks

Ralph · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:07 pm Post subject:

TTK is the classic teaching and the method described in Arbans. That's how I learned it. I tried TKT and just couldn't get it to sound like triplets.

trumpetmike · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:05 pm Post subject:

My suggestion would be to work on the K, then build up the TTK, but primarily the K. This (in my opinion and experience) tends to be the problem with the multiple tongue. When the K is working well both TTK and TKT should be working well.

If you can alternate between TTK or TKT you are well prepared for anything which might come yor way.

If you can put either T or K in any order you can cope with any piece that comes up, wherever the accent may be in the piece.

Do a search on TH and you will find loads of suggestions as to how to improve multiple tongue techniques.

Cheng · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:00 pm Post subject:

My triple practice includes doing speed drills with just the t and then the k. Try doing 8 triplets with t then 8 with k. Start on g and alternate moving up and down a half step. Start this exercise slow and work your way up.

After doing this, go to the Arbans and work on the triplet exercises. Start slow and build over time. It will be difficult to change but well worth the effort.

roynj · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065

This question seems to come up frequently. In my experience, the traditional approach espoused by Arban and others of tu-tu-ku (TTK) is the preferred and best method to use. As a small point, I might mention that it's important NOT to pronounce the syllable too far back in the mouth or throat.

Bootleg · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:17 pm Post subject:

Well, we have to consider that you continue this format. TKT or TTK. And if we put it in a longer string, we will see that it is almost the same. We see the TKT version inside the TTK version and vice versa.

TKT TKT TKT TKT TKT TKT TKT
TT KT TKT TKT TKT TKT TK

So you can see it's more of a mental factor because your tongue will be doing the same thing, it's how your brain interprets the tonguing. Therefore, it is basically the same physically and the only difference is how well each version works for you.

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:51 pm Post subject:

Practice both.

bigbrowncow · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:52 am Post subject:

You're just going to have to start slow - possibly slower than your current single tonguing, and build up the speed. It does come with time.

You can also practice this away from the instrument, although you might get some funny looks walking down the street whispering TuTuKuTuTuKuTuTuKu...

Steve
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Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:54 am Post subject:

I would suggest that for some people, multiple tonguing seems to catch on better if you start at whatever speed is comfortable -- fast, slow, or in between -- and work outwards from there. It allows you to get the pattern moving without over-analyzing it. Once you can get TTK or TKT going consistently at a comfortable speed, work faster and slower as necessary from that point.

I think it goes without saying that the metronome is your friend...

_PhilPicc · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:26 am Post subject:

Memran, Welcome to TH.

I agree with NE as far as practicing both. It is also something you can practice away from the horn as has been stated.

When I was going through a change in tonguing position I did a lot of practice when I was driving. (without the horn)

Best of luck,
Phil
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Ralph · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:30 am Post subject:

NE,

When would you use TKT over TTK when playing triplets? Maybe when playing only one triplet figure rather than in a succession of many triplets?

Over the past (almost) year, Ive always found your comments to be right on the money.

Memran · Regular Member Joined: 29 Dec 2003 Posts: 11

Thanks for all replies

I do believe its coming now! I can TTK 8th triplets at about 120, as long as the run is not too long. After a longer run I slip back into TKT - quite frustrating, but at least progress is being made

I don't think I am going fast enough yet for any rhythmic inconsistencies to show up, but it somehow feels as though it would be easier to go faster even though at this stage I can't (if you understand that).

I agree I will need to work on my K more. Playing slowly (since I can't go fast yet) shows that my K is much weaker than I thought it was. Starting the notes with K alone makes me sound like I have picked up my trumpet for the first time ever, yet the K in TKT or indeed TTK sounds almost convincing.

Still, as long as progress is being made I'm happy!

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

I'm with NE,

Practice both. I believe you need to master both to be successful at Scherezade.

I like "TKT" for the middle section of Honneger Intrada.

I wonder what "ta, ta, ka" thinks? Does "ta, ta, ka" ......"ta, ka, ta?"

romey

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:09 am Post subject:

Ralph --

There are three kinds of situations when I use TKT instead of TTK. First, for me (probably because I started with TTK) TKT is a little slower. So I use TKT in situations that are prone to rush, or are not quite fast enough to triple tongue TTK, or benefit from a little more definition, particularly on the last note of the triplet. Second, there are situations where there is a pickup to the triplet -- the most obvious example of this is in Scheherazade. Rather than tongue it K/TTK/T K/TTK/T etc., which means starting with a K syllable, it's easier for me to use T/TKT/T T/TKT/T. (T/TTK/T T/TTK/T isn't an acceptable solution for me because it would mean putting three Ts in a row.) I hope that's clear -- if you know the lick I mean, you'll understand what I'm talking about. The final situation is similar to what romey mentions in the Honegger. I've gone back and forth on that particular piece, but it general I tend to feel more secure making leaps after a T articulation. So if I had to play something like CCC/G----- I might be inclined to use TKT/TAAAA.

One could probably argue that the best thing to do would be to practice K articulations to the point where they're as secure as T articulations. I suppose that would be possible, but I'm not sure it would be the best use of my time. Maybe if I did that I wouldn't have to play Nutcracker any more...

(Actually, that reminds me of a third possibility, which I use in the Chocolate solo in Nutcracker: TKT KTK. I use that very occasionally when I want a very even sound with no emphasis on the start of each triplet -- tktktk vs. TtkTtk or TktTkt. You can never have too many choices!)

By the way, although I've used Ts and Ks, I actually tend to think Ds and Gs most of the time. I find it helps me to focus on the sound rather than the tongue, which for me is the key. A lot of times when people have trouble with multiple tonguing it is because they are going Tuh... Tuh... Kuh... rather than dAAAdAAAgAAA.

[ This Message was edited by: Nonsense Eliminator on 2003-12-31 14:23 ]

Ralph · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:19 am Post subject:

I know the piece although I've never played it. Your explaination (along with Romey's) makes perfect sense. Thanks.