Thoughts about brass instrument bell rims

[ricoboogie]

I've been wondering about the purpose of the bell rim on brass instruments... What's it's function? Is it merely a support for the otherwise flimsy flare at the end of the instrument? Does it add/detract from the instrument's tonality? And if it does have an effect, why do we see so many manufacturers that make a selling point of "lightened third slide screw" and not "larger/smaller/different type of metal bell rim?"

[ayryq]

My Strad advertised its "classic French bead flat rim providing a quick response with outstanding projection and broader tone." It does look a little different.
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Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet

[ayryq]

Here's a thread with some discussion:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=951846

There's several others...

Seems to me reading through them that most folks are not in a situation to compare two otherwise-identical horns with different beads. "This horn had better feedback" but it had different taper, different bore, different bracing, and also a different bead.

The main function (I believe) of any rim is to strengthen and protect the bell.
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Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet

[Divitt Trumpets]

I built 2 trumpets a few years back. One had a big rim and one had no rim.
While I liked both, I found that the rimless one didn't have any "box" to keep me from overblowing the horn. There was no feeling that I had reached the maximum dynamics that the horn could produce.
There was also a noticeable difference in the feeling of stability of the sound. Hitting some notes felt more fragile than I prefer.
Lots of feedback in the rimless bell as well since it can vibrate a bit more freely.

The large rim kept things within a known limit. I could feel when the horn wouldn't go any further dynamically, and the stability of the notes was considerably more locked in.

A lot of what type of rim you choose depends on what you're looking for in a trumpet. Rimless also greatly reduces the ability to withstand a drop, which I'm sure is one reason 99% of trumpets have some sort of rim, whether it be round, flat, triangular like a blessing super artist, a garland or an inverted rim like on the York Airflow.
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[shofarguy]

There are hundreds of years of experimentation and experience on this subject. Back a few years, I was privileged to be able to learn from Zig Kanstul and Byron Autrey, as well as Flip Oakes about some of it.

Zig told me that 5-5/8" was the natural rim diameter for Bb trumpet. That dimension produces the purest fundamental tone. A larger rim adds high frequency overtones to the timbre.

Byron discussed the many options bell makers use, such as the wire size, shape and material to form the bell bead.

Flip Oakes originally wanted an unsoldered "dead" bell for the WildThing, but Zig wouldn't agree to build them that way for warranty reasons.

On and on it goes!

We haven't even begun to discuss materials, material thicknesses, or fabrication techniques and processes.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[royjohn]

Oh, where is the Captain when you really need him...his post on this subject could have been several pages long and put me to sleep tonight! We really shouldn't have "churched" him...
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[Winghorn]

The Conn "Vocabell" models of the '30's and '40's had no bell rim at all which according to Conn, produced a 10 decibel increase in volume.

I don't know about that, but I think they have a nice sound (at least the ones that haven't been trashed, that is).

Steve

[Divitt Trumpets]

[Manuel de los Campos]

Years ago I posessed both the 6310z and the 8310z Yamaha trumpets. The latter was equipped with a French bead rim, the 6310z had a round bell rim

This is what Yamaha says about the French bead rim: "Unlike traditional methods that produce a round bell rim, the more advanced French bead technique results in a flat-dome rim shape that enhances feedback to the performer."

My experience was the opposite. I liked the 6310z more since I found it easier to play because of I could hear myself better playing in a section
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Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs)

[Steve Hollahan]

I find the best horn gets you through the gig, the check cashes and gets you invited back.

Anything more is great.
_________________
Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com

[Riojazz]

Random comments:

I had a builder tell me once that the rim bead added a 'ring' to the bell. I'm not giving a citation because this statement as offered was totally unsupported.

As I haven't crunched a bell with a rim bead yet, I don't know if it gives it more strength. Hope so.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

[AndyDavids]

Funny story...old man Schilke used his un-beaded bell B1 to scratch his back once. Heard he never did that again, and there's your answer!

[delano]