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nycbg
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Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Posts: 14
Location: New York City
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 Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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What a great conversation we are having! Had I known that you were such a knowledgeable - and entertaining - bunch, I would have joined many moons ago. Just for the thrill of reading your posts.
Just a couple of hours ago, I checked Austin Custom Brass flugel (THANK YOU, delano, for the link!) and it really looks fantastic. I mean, "fantastic" for $700.
So, here's my daily dose of questions for you guys:
1) Do you concur with delano that I should go with flugel right away? I.e., that it is not necessary to start out with trumpet?
2) In your book, would you rate this flugel as a good deal?
https://www.austincustombrass.biz/acb-doublers-flugelhorn-our-1-selling-product-at-acb-with-new-options/
3) I don't know if it comes with a mouthpiece. If it doesn't, what should I be looking for?
Many thanks.
Dan, NYC
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | ... is because many kids who I teach are quite surprised early on that they are having a lot of difficulty in simple tone production. By contrast, give a kid a basketball and chances are he can at least get somewhat close to being able to play, on a VERY rudimental level, fairly quickly. Not necessarily so with a brass instrument.
I’ve had parents of beginners tell me how surprised their children were at the level of difficulty in the very beginning. And again, practice greatly helps, obviously, but a kid can kinda sorta play basketball or baseball with virtually no individual practice. Not so much with a brass instrument.
Brad |
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I don't have experience doing teaching, so I'm not in a position to dispute your findings.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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1) Starting on flugel would be fine IF you are certain that is your primary goal. A disadvantage is that flugels have the reputation of sometimes having 'quirks' that make them more difficult than a trumpet or cornet. Another concern is that flugel is viewed as being quite specialized, and is usually not viewed as a 'general purpose band instrument' - where a trpt is.
A flugel uses basically the same playing technique as trpt, same fingering, same basic range, and can be used to play TRPT parts - but the sound is different and not appropriate in all situations where a trpt sound is desired.
2) I don't have experience with ACB or their instruments, but the owner is an active member here on TH, and has a good reputation among people who have dealt with him. As for the finish on the horn, I'd go with the Clear.
3) A flugel usually uses a different type mouthpiece than trpt, so yes make sure it comes with one, or buy one at the same time - you might have to shop around to find a dealer who carries flugel mpc even in NYC. Mouthpiece choice is largely determined by your lip size and shape, and teeth alignment. You'd get better verbal info by describing those items. E.g. I think my lips & teeth are typical of an 'average white guy' and no particular issues with lip or teeth sensitivity.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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deleted_user_687c31b
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| nycbg wrote: | 1) Do you concur with delano that I should go with flugel right away? I.e., that it is not necessary to start out with trumpet?
2) In your book, would you rate this flugel as a good deal? |
There is absolutely no reason why you should start on trumpet. It's not as if you must be 'at least this good' on the trumpet before you're allowed to play the flügel. I do agree with JayKosta though that trumpets in general are more versatile and used in a wider variety of settings. But you could get a trumpet later and play both; they're not mutually exclusive.
About the only reason I can think of to start on trumpet or cornet is because they're cheaper. You can get a (semi-)professional playing trumpet or cornet for under $250 (second hand Olds Ambassadors for example). I haven't yet read about anyone getting a playable flugelhorn (i.e. few intonation quirks) for under $500 as most seem to have intonation issues. The ACB doubler you mentioned, has a very good reputation: it's rather cheap for a flügelhorn and seems to have few intonation issues...but not having played one I cannot confirm that myself. |
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delano
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Kosta's remarks have some ground but not too much. He is 'political correct' but that will not mean he has it right. So how could playing a flügelhorn be more difficult than playing the trumpet if playing any of that horns is as easy as learning the basics of baseball? Learning the flügel is than as easy as learning soft ball.
I think it's easy to defend that learning the flügel is easier than learning the trumpet, at least on a flügel you are no failure if you don't own a double high C. And the breathing has to be right on a flügel otherwise no sound, and so on. So less room for bad habits.
A flügel may be marginal more specialized than a trumpet, the difference is outside the classical music world not that shocking. The great Dutch flügel player Ack van Rooyen sees the flügel vs the trumpet as the alto violin vs the regular violin, softer and smoother, less military. There are a few players who seem to be destined for the flügel like Clark Terry, Art Farmer, in Holland Ack van Rooyen. They are excellent on trumpet also but...
And it's perfectly possible to play typical (not all!) trumpetparts on a flügel.
See this clip in which Ack van Rooyen plays a typical trumpet standard on flügel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHI5mZUt6ow&feature=emb_logo
And for the sound, listen to Round Midnight:
http://www.boyedgarprijs.nl/videos-ack-van-rooyen/
BTW the ACB doublers flügel will be delivered including a 3C flügel mouthpiece. Whether that is right for you or not I don't know.
Edit: new Chinese flügels are remarkable cheap and often quite good. That is really weird but for some unknown reason the Chinese got it right with the flügels (maybe they copy them very well).
And still be prepared... |
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blbaumgarn
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Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 705
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:13 pm Post subject: trumpet recommendations, anyone? |
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I will second what Kehaulani said. Find a good used Getzen, the Capri is great. The Getzens are built like iron and you will get a good sound and great service from the horn. That's just MHO.
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| nycbg wrote: | What a great conversation we are having! Had I known that you were such a knowledgeable - and entertaining - bunch, I would have joined many moons ago. Just for the thrill of reading your posts.
Just a couple of hours ago, I checked Austin Custom Brass flugel (THANK YOU, delano, for the link!) and it really looks fantastic. I mean, "fantastic" for $700.
So, here's my daily dose of questions for you guys:
1) Do you concur with delano that I should go with flugel right away? I.e., that it is not necessary to start out with trumpet?
2) In your book, would you rate this flugel as a good deal?
https://www.austincustombrass.biz/acb-doublers-flugelhorn-our-1-selling-product-at-acb-with-new-options/
3) I don't know if it comes with a mouthpiece. If it doesn't, what should I be looking for?
Many thanks.
Dan, NYC |
The ACB Doublers flugels play very well, and are a great value (I owned one, traded it, probably should have kept it). In addition, Trent Austin is a great guy to deal with, as well as being a VERY accomplished player himself.
As to starting on flugel as opposed to trumpet: no real reason why not, but realize that depending on what genres you’re interested in, flugel opportunities might be more limited. Personally, I would advise starting on trumpet.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Jerry
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Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2163
Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:17 am Post subject: |
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It is certainly not necessary to start with trumpet.
I find flugelhorn physically easier to blow than trumpet. If you were to pick up trumpet after you were playing flugelhorn for a while, I'd bet you'd be quite shocked at what a physically different endeavor that is.
So if you're not really interested in playing trumpet but really interested in playing flugelhorn, start with flugelhorn, no question.
If you want to get a sense of Trent, you can look at his Youtube videos. Try starting here: https://www.austincustombrass.biz/acb-you-tube-channel/
Assuming you buy this flugelhorn from Trent (and I can't think of a reason why you wouldn't), then ask him to sell you an appropriate mouthpiece if it doesn't already come with one.
(You mentioned you live in Queens; I grew up in Rockaway.) |
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nycbg
Regular Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Posts: 14
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, Brad361!
Your question is spot on: the genres!
I fell in love with flugelhorn the very first time I heard Clark Terry in "Stardust" (Teddy Wilson, piano...). I guess that pretty much sums it up.
Best.
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nycbg
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Location: New York City
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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I think a big question here is whether anyone has experience with the OXFORD brand.
The flugel looks like it is made from a trumpet basic shape - only with the flugel leadpipe going directly into (a trumpet's) the 1st valve 'output' port, and the flugel bell tail attaching to the (a trumpet's) 3rd valve 'input' port.
Is that a conventional wrap for a flugel, or would there be any obvious problems with it? My guess is that all the other tubing is sized and tapered like a trumpet.
The seller does claim to have a 30 day full-refund policy ... but the returned instrument has to be in like-new condition, and with all packaging, etc. And the buyer would have to pay the return shipping and insurance.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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nycbg
Regular Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Posts: 14
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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THANKS, JayKOsta!
It seems I'd be best going with ACB? That is if I want to go straight to fg?
I have contacted several online instructors in my area already, BUT they all say that, due to the COVID situation, they are only accepting ONLINE classes.
Do you think this is sufficient?
I have never taken any online class, although I teach online classes to college students!!!
Somehow, I feel it's different. I teach social sciences - anthropology, sociology, linguistics - but I am just not comfortable with a one-on-one instruction on an instrument I don't even know!
Hope everyone is staying healthy.
There's always time for online chat!
Best
Dan
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| nycbg wrote: | THANKS, JayKOsta!
It seems I'd be best going with ACB? That is if I want to go straight to fg?
I have contacted several online instructors in my area already, BUT they all say that, due to the COVID situation, they are only accepting ONLINE classes.
Do you think this is sufficient?
I have never taken any online class, although I teach online classes to college students!!!
Somehow, I feel it's different. I teach social sciences - anthropology, sociology, linguistics - but I am just not comfortable with a one-on-one instruction on an instrument I don't even know!
Hope everyone is staying healthy.
There's always time for online chat!
Best
Dan |
Because I’ve not played (or heard of) that particular flugel, I’m guessing here, but a couple of things: that particular valve /slide configuration looks to me like they took a valve block and slides from a student model (probably) trumpet and added a larger flugel-like bell. (Yamaha makes an entry level flugel that resembles that one, but at least it’s made by a company with a reputation and history). The one you’re looking at might be ok, personally I would definitely pass. The ACB flugels are definitely well playing horns, and while they’re about twice the price, they’re a known product. Plus Trent doesn’t sell junk.
Lessons: take them, if on line is your only option now....take them. As far as virtual lessons go, I have 24 students currently that I teach on line, it’s not ideal, but it’s definitely better than nothing. MUCH better.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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austincustombrass
Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 246
Location: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:46 am Post subject: |
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My opinion?
Those aren't as good as what we can offer you (even some pre-owned stuff for less). Call us at 816-410-0826 and we'll set you up with much better gear. Honestly if it were me I'd go with a tpt over flugelhorn to start as well.
Best,
Trent
_________________
As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.
It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.
Cool Links here:
https://linktr.ee/austincustombrass |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| austincustombrass wrote: |
My opinion?
Those aren't as good as what we can offer you (even some pre-owned stuff for less). Call us at 816-410-0826 and we'll set you up with much better gear. Honestly if it were me I'd go with a tpt over flugelhorn to start as well.
Best,
Trent |
Plus 1 on all the above, especially Trent’s last sentence.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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nycbg
Regular Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Posts: 14
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you!
Looks like Austin it will be.
Btw, what is the definition of a "student trumpet"? I don't recall ever seeing a "student clarinet", let alone "student piano" !?
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deleted_user_687c31b
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| nycbg wrote: | | Btw, what is the definition of a "student trumpet"? I don't recall ever seeing a "student clarinet", let alone "student piano" !? |
An exact definition is up for debate, but the one thing that most will agree upon is that it's an indication of price. For most brands, their 'student models' are their cheapest model which allows beginners to try the hobby without breaking the bank. These models are often of lower quality than the pro models of the same brand, and while they may share parts or design concepts, they're often cheaper because the company spends less time refining and testing the final product. A 'pro model' might get a precision valve alignment for example, whereas a 'student model' could just get the valves in with standardized alignment. Or they may lack certain features a more expensive model does get (say, a 3rd slide trigger versus a 3rd slide ring). Often, these are features that a beginner will have less need of, hence the term 'student'. |
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nycbg
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Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Posts: 14
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, hibidogrulez.
Happy New Year!
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nycbg
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delano
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Well done! You will have a nice, new instrument which will fit your aspiration to play the flügel.
I understand why Brad and Trent have some preference for starting on trumpet, for a younger person who is at the beginning of a possible musical career I should say the same. But you seem to be quite experienced in music and if your fun is the flügel I see no reason to take the detour of the trumpet, the more because you seem to have the sound picture of the flügelhorn in your head and starting on a horn you love gives the right motivation.
A little warning: the sound of Clark Terry on the Stardust recording is unique, he plays there a sixties French Selmer flügel and in my opinion he never had a better sound. I know somebody who owned a flügel like that and he thought that it was quite a difficult one to play especially qua intonation. At the same time, Clark Terry is my eternal hero for jazz playing technique, he was at least one of the best, maybe THE best. He was a hell of a player.
So good luck with your horn and have a nice 2021 with a nice start.
Last edited by delano on Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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