Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:03 pm Post subject: Set up embouchure
Would it be strange to freebuzz a 3th space ‘c’ and then put the mouthpiece+trumpet on your chops. Use this formation as the starting point to play whole your range on ....’.use the freebuzz to find a good ,solid,formation of the embouchure......
I have the feeling that it helps to get rid of playing with spread chops,pushing to hard .....So you use this set to play low notes and high notes.
I'd say it's a dead-end waste of time that's based on various misconceptions. It won't give you a solid formation of the embouchure - how your chops are set to free buzz is completely dissimilar to how they're set to actually play at any given pitch.
How your embouchure is formed changes as you go through various ranges. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
No. That is far too much effort in the embouchure than is required to play all but the highest pitches.
However if you stop the free buzz, relax and use only a minimum effort, the lips would be in a reasonably good position. Somewhat between a "m" and "p".
But you don't have to free-buzz to achieve that set up.
I'd say it's a dead-end waste of time that's based on various misconceptions. It won't give you a solid formation of the embouchure - how your chops are set to free buzz is completely dissimilar to how they're set to actually play at any given pitch.
How your embouchure is formed changes as you go through various ranges.
Kaltjah ,that is what I mean....stop freebuzzing when you play the trumpet but use it just to find a good alignement of your chops,jaw,corner tension,opening in the chops.......not a flubby embouchure.....Seems to work better than the Porter 4 steps set up......maybe the endresult is the same .
I think I once saw a video where Mr. Christopher Martin said he used a firm c buzz for his embouchure set.....he plays everyting in this chops setting........low to high.....probably I have been dreaming......
I think I once saw a video where Mr. Christopher Martin said he used a firm c buzz for his embouchure set.....he plays everyting in this chops setting........low to high.....probably I have been dreaming......
He may think he does but he doesn't.
Look at his setting at 2:08 and 4:08. Clearly different.
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Set up embouchure
kokopelli wrote:
Would it be strange to freebuzz a 3th space ‘c’ and then put the mouthpiece+trumpet on your chops. Use this formation as the starting point to play whole your range on ....’.use the freebuzz to find a good ,solid,formation of the embouchure......
I have the feeling that it helps to get rid of playing with spread chops,pushing to hard .....So you use this set to play low notes and high notes.
No. It wouldn't be strange at all. I use a second line G, but no reason to not use the third space C.
Congrats on figuring out how the embouchure should work! You're on your way.
BTW. The Caruso approach has some really good free buzz - mpc buzz - trumpet play exercises to support and encourage this type of embouchure formation.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9037 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:26 am Post subject:
Going from a free buzz to adding mouthpiece was exactly how I learned. Learned that from a student of Schilke's. I don't think Schilke is bush league.
But, it's really important to keep loose and relaxed for as long as you can. Starting off on a middle-space "G" is probably much better than the "C". _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:09 am Post subject:
You are going to hear both positive and negative responses to your question. Some of the negatives will be rather vehement if not downright blunt to the point of rudeness.
The far more simple truth is that we ALL do ‘something’ to form an embouchure. That something is going to be our experiences, the tuition we got (or didn’t get) and how we have progressed (or not) in our search to play as we want to.
If free buzzing sets up the sensations you need to play well, great. I know it does for me. If you feel it ruins your playing day, then obviously, do something different.
When I was introduced to free buzzing, I did think it was slightly nuts, and was very, very challenged by even the most basic buzzing in this manner. It highlighted weaknesses in my playing setup that I had not addressed. Getting past those probably kept me playing... now there are some who will rant and rave on how terrible free buzzing is. From my point of view they are not correct.
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
I wouldn't recommend my embouchure to 99% of people out there, but it works for me. For years, I shunned free lip buzzing because I cannot physically duplicate how i play without the mouthpiece and I was worried that I would develop bad habits as a result. Then, this past summer I started to have embouchure issues while coming back after not playing for 6 years.
I contacted a professional with a very similar embouchure to mine and he recommended free lip buzzing. His reasoning was that it works muscles we (he and I) don't normally work while playing. It helps him and after watching a few videos of my embouchure and problem, he recommended it to me as well. I was very skeptical, but seeing as how I know nobody else with embouchures like us and he is a professional, I did the exercises he recommended.
All I can tell you is it helped me. _________________ Chris
These threads always devolve into talking past one another. What happens is far less important than the process it takes to get to a healthy approach. For some players, buzzing (of the various types) does this. For other players, it hurts them. We don't play by theory; we play by what works.
For me, over the long term, building up from a buzz-based setup keeps my playing healthy. Second-line G works best for me as my starting point. I've tried moving my starting point up to C with the idea of making my upper register more relaxed (with every note being a 4th closer to my home base), but all it did was make me tense. Starting on a low C leaves me too flabby, so it's G for me. My daily routine involves playing lips alone, a rim on a stick, and the mouthpiece as well as buzzing in as described in the OP. It's a relatively small but important part of my day to keep everything working. I don't need that stuff to play well on any particular day, but after a few days of not doing it, things start to become more difficult.
You'll see varying advice on application, but for me, I buzz my entire range rather than restricting my buzzing range to something lower. I also lip buzz throughout my day of practicing rather than restricting myself to a little bit of time in the beginning as some seem to recommend. I personally don't run into any negative effects from "too much buzzing" but some (most?) players seem to experience this. I become more relaxed as I add more pipe, but don't make any particular effort to do so.
I find buzzing in to be a great way to get set up. If it works, do it.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3313 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:29 pm Post subject:
Andy Del wrote:
...
If free buzzing sets up the sensations you need to play well, great. ...
---------------------------------
I think the main item is 'sets up the sensations ...' .
When you do get the mouthpiece into actual playing position, it does change the lip position from that of free buzzing. I wouldn't attempt to force 'playing lips' into 'free buzzing position'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 650 Location: Johnson City, Texas
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:39 pm Post subject:
Be cautious because free buzzing and walking into the same pitch can cause too much tension and a sound that is not as resonant as you'd like. It would probably be more productive to buzz a low C and walk the mouthpiece into a 3rd space C.
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Set up embouchure
kokopelli wrote:
Would it be strange to freebuzz a 3th space ‘c’ and then put the mouthpiece+trumpet on your chops. Use this formation as the starting point to play whole your range on ....’.use the freebuzz to find a good ,solid,formation of the embouchure......
I have the feeling that it helps to get rid of playing with spread chops,pushing to hard .....So you use this set to play low notes and high notes.
From the replies to this topic I'm immediately reminded of a high school history textbook from long ago. Somewhere inside is quoted,
"One man's meat is another man's poison".
Although at first I'd like to state to the O/P "kokpelli" that what you're describing was well documented as a viable practicing technique by Donald Reinhardt. Now I'd like to add my own personal take on the matter.
If free-buzzing a third space C natural seems to help, why limit your method to just a middle register note? Try and free-buzz a freaking High C or higher. So long as you can get at least a mezzo-forte volume out of the horn I'd say keep free-buzzing them tones up into outer space.
I'm mentioning this because one of the ways I had pulled my recently changed embouchure out of the doldrums was by doing exactly that which I just described. This I started about a month ago and it has worked GREAT! Essentially what has happened is that a "Free-buzz" done on dry lips tends to reinforce a "Rolled-In" embouchure. These kinds of chops being well known for their fantastic range. Think about this concept, which is more efficient,
1. Relaxing a High note embouchure in order to blow middle and lower register tones, Or
2. Tightening, jamming, and strengthening a flabby, lower register embouchure in order to play up high?
Not much of a choice eh? It takes a while. Also, there's more to it than this. I recommend reading the 2nd edition of the "Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique" in order to gain an understanding of what makes a "limited" vs an "Unlimited" trumpet embouchure setting. Allan Colin sells them over at "Charles Colin Brass Publishing" I bought two copies this year. One for me, the other for a student who is taking to it like a duck to water. The book does not address "Walking In" as mentioned. At least not to my knowledge. Regardless my friend?
Always remain OPEN-MINDED. If I ever write a book on trumpet it'll be prefaced by these words, "Feel free to accept or reject ANYTHING that you find herein".
Lastly RE; "Walikng-In". Avoid dogmatic directives or suggestions. Case in point, Donald Reinhardt himself, the noted brass chops "doctor" guru being the initial person to suggest the free-buzz walk-in told his readers and students not to execute a free buzz on a set of chops that "wasn't wet". While as a matter of fact I've been having utterly fantastic results with the free-buzz set up on dry lips. OMG it's been great. I'm really happy with it. Take these thoughts,
Despite his successes as a brass teacher, Reinhardt himself was a trombonist. Let me tell you that the demands on embouchure for a trumpet player are much greater than for thw low brass. AND Reinhardt essentially admitted that not all of his students could learn to execute notes above a trumpet player's High G. Or High F concert. And I can see why he said this but I DISAGREE WITH HIM. As Reinhardt's system didn't take into account ideas from outside of his own thoughts. And as he said certain trumpet players of the "Type III Standard" setting will truly struggle to get notes above a High G.
Had Reinhardt been a trumpet player and perhaps dropped his bitter feud with Roy Stevens perhaps he'd have developed more screaming trumpet students. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
I think I once saw a video where Mr. Christopher Martin said he used a firm c buzz for his embouchure set.....he plays everyting in this chops setting........low to high.....probably I have been dreaming......
He may think he does but he doesn't.
Look at his setting at 2:08 and 4:08. Clearly different.
I think I once saw a video where Mr. Christopher Martin said he used a firm c buzz for his embouchure set.....he plays everyting in this chops setting........low to high.....probably I have been dreaming......
He may think he does but he doesn't.
Look at his setting at 2:08 and 4:08. Clearly different.
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